BHP replacement project - C22 Pistol megathread

[Fabius]

The military and sport shooting have a closely intertwined history. It’s only in recent history that due to government policy have they diverged at an institutional level.
At an individual level I agree we should not rely on private practice to attain the minimum skills needed but institutionally we are foolish to ignore and abandon private sport shooting as a means to develop and further skills and techniques.

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[markppcli]

The military and sport shooting have a closely intertwined history. It’s only in recent history that due to government policy have they diverged at an institutional level.
At an individual level I agree we should not rely on private practice to attain the minimum skills needed but institutionally we are foolish to ignore and abandon private sport shooting as a means to develop and further skills and techniques.

About - Dominion of Canada Rifle Association

About Promoting Rifle Shooting in Canada since 1868 Founded on April 1st, 1868 the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association was established with the express purpose of supporting military (Militia) and [...]Read More... from About

dcra.ca

Which is t at all what I said lol.

 

[Good2Golf]

Didn’t you guys carry your 226s in Condition 2? That’s how I, and the people I worked with, would carry them. Hammer down on a loaded chamber. The only 226 that should be carried Condition 1 is the fairly uncommon 226 SAO Legion.

Edited to add the late Colonel Cooper’s handgun conditions:

• Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
• Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine, hammer down.
• Condition Two: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer down.
• Condition One: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer cocked, safety on.
• Condition Zero: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer cocked, safety off.

Readied and de-cocked. So I suppose technically yes, Colonel Cooper would call it Condition 2. Like KevinB says below, I think a lot of folks, myself included, use Condition 1 as “good to go with minimum fuss.”

Very few folks consider hammer down on a DA/SA gun condition 2. That was an idiot aspect for SA hammer guns (1911 or BHP as examples) where folks where ease the hammer down and then try to cock the hammer if they need to fire it.

Or half-cock the BHP…an equally stupid move IMO.

Coopers rules were for SA hammer guns like the 1911 and BHP. Condition 1 for Striker fired or DA/SA guns is simply hammer down on a loaded chamber.
They never got updated to thinking about guns DA and Striker guns without safeties


For Striker guns or DA guns like the P225/226/229, hammer down on a loaded chamber chamber is Condition 1 (Readied).

Dude told me it was condition 1, which in the sense of draw from holster and pull trigger and fire, that made sense to me.

The irony is that people think Cooper meant for there to be a progression from 4 to zero, but I don’t think that’s the case.

Unless I’m totally missing something, Condition 2 can be effectively the same as Conditioner 1 can be the same effectively as Condition 0, for DA/SA, SA and DAO/Striker respectively…all those conditions can result in a pistol being drawn and less a bit of Thumby McThumbThumb action in the SA, they all fire… right?

 

[markppcli]

Readied and de-cocked. So I suppose technically yes, Colonel Cooper would call it Condition 2. Like KevinB says below, I think a lot of folks, myself included, use Condition 1 as “good to go with minimum fuss.”


Or half-cock the BHP…an equally stupid move IMO.


Dude told me it was condition 1, which in the sense of draw from holster and pull trigger and fire, that made sense to me.

The irony is that people think Cooper meant for there to be a progression from 4 to zero, but I don’t think that’s the case.

Unless I’m totally missing something, Condition 2 can be effectively the same as Conditioner 1 can be the same effectively as Condition 0, for DA/SA, SA and DAO/Striker respectively…all those conditions can result in a pistol being drawn and less a bit of Thumby McThumbThumb action in the SA, they all fire… right?

Oh hod the half cock on the bhp

 

[Ostrozac]

Very few folks consider hammer down on a DA/SA gun condition 2. That was an idiot aspect for SA hammer guns (1911 or BHP as examples) where folks where ease the hammer down and then try to cock the hammer if they need to fire it.

Coopers rules were for SA hammer guns like the 1911 and BHP. Condition 1 for Striker fired or DA/SA guns is simply hammer down on a loaded chamber.
They never got updated to thinking about guns DA and Striker guns without safeties


For Striker guns or DA guns like the P225/226/229, hammer down on a loaded chamber chamber is Condition 1 (Readied).

Thanks for the backstory — so people were actually thumb dropping the hammer onto loaded chambers with the 1911 and BHP? Or at least often enough that there was a term for it? That’s just… wow. Seems so odd to have a manual safety but then ignore it entirely.

The ancient ways are fascinating.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Thanks for the backstory — so people were actually thumb dropping the hammer onto loaded chambers with the 1911 and BHP? Or at least often enough that there was a term for it? That’s just… wow. Seems so odd to have a manual safety but then ignore it entirely.

The ancient ways are fascinating.

You wait long enough, someone will tell a story about puttees or gaiter weights…

 

[Maxman1]

As MH aircrew, the only thing I ever carried was a P226. The annual range qualification was done with holstered, but readied weapon. I am unaware of anyone causing an ND on the draw.

The only thing I ever carried on operations was a P226 with one up the spoutand decocked. Again, I am unaware of any ND, ever.

If a bunch of aircrew can be taught to do it safely, I would like to think army folk can be too.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I have to correct an error. It was a P225.

 

[Maxman1]

The small arms cell in the Inf School had dreams of improving the quality of pistol training when the C22 was introduced.
However the initiative was poorly thought out. The cell drafted and got signed off their vision for a C22 instructor package and C22 operator, which in theory the whole force was supposed to do.
However they had not communicated with anyone the higher ammo requirements. When the instructions dropped, no unit had anywhere close to the needed ammunition. Nor had SJS allocated for that level of ammunition across the CAF. The vision survived barely 10-12 months before it was quashed by the field forces hard resource constraints.

I was storesman on one of the first ASAI course to have the new pistol instructor package, and we had to steal other schools' 9mm stock to get enough ammo.

We could get thousands upon thousands of 7.62 ammo, however.

 

[Good2Golf]

I have to correct an error. It was a P225.

I think the Hornet drivers also got the 225…

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I think the Hornet drivers also got the 225…

Ok- which was the 8 rd magazine version?

That one…

 

[Good2Golf]

We could get thousands upon thousands of 7.62 ammo, however.

Norinco chambers a 226 clone in 7.62, but not sure if it’s x51 or x39…heck, it might even be Tolarev x25…

 

[Maxman1]

Norinco chambers a 226 clone in 7.62, but not sure if it’s x51 or x39…heck, it might even be Tolarev x25…

The Norinco DA762 is 7.62x25 Tokarev.

But I was referring to 7.62x51 for C6 ranges. We would get entire pallets of ammo and would send back at least half unused.

 

[Fabius]

The 225 would have been a 8rnd mag. It’s the 226 that has a double stack mag with 15.

I carried the 225 in Afghanistan, as we didn’t want the BHP.

 

[Fabius]

Another interesting aspect of the C22 rollout was that the Army initially mandated that to teach the C22 you had to be C22 instructor qualified.
You couldn’t simply be qualified on the C22 and an NCO with the small arms course.

This was done specifically to try to improve the pistol skills across the force and serve as a forcing function. The idea of needing a specific instructor qualified on in addition to be qualified on the weapon was not well received from my anecdotal experience.

 

[MilEME09]

Another interesting aspect of the C22 rollout was that the Army initially mandated that to teach the C22 you had to be C22 instructor qualified.
You couldn’t simply be qualified on the C22 and an NCO with the small arms course.

This was done specifically to try to improve the pistol skills across the force and serve as a forcing function. The idea of needing a specific instructor qualified on in addition to be qualified on the weapon was not well received from my anecdotal experience.

The issue i see current is with so few trainers, It should be each brigade tracking them, not the units. I've offered to help other units and they have zero idea I am a C22 trainer. Units are not communicating how many trainers they have to pool resources.

 

[KevinB]

I’m not against guys shooting on their own. My point was that we shouldn’t have to rely on sport shooting to develop and maintain skills.

FIFY

 

[Fabius]

The issue i see current is with so few trainers, It should be each brigade tracking them, not the units. I've offered to help other units and they have zero idea I am a C22 trainer. Units are not communicating how many trainers they have to pool resources.

I thought that it’s since been amended and any NCO who is qualified on the C22 can instruct the C22. Therefore there is no need for the C22 instructor crse or new pers to be qualified that.

 

[Maxman1]

The 225 would have been a 8rnd mag. It’s the 226 that has a double stack mag with 15.

I carried the 225 in Afghanistan, as we didn’t want the BHP.

The 225 is also a compact barrel length, at 3.6 inch instead of 4.4 inch.

 

[MilEME09]

I thought that it’s since been amended and any NCO who is qualified on the C22 can instruct the C22. Therefore there is no need for the C22 instructor crse or new pers to be qualified that.

I haven't heard of that amendment before you mentioned it, ill have to look it up, if you have a reference off hand could you PM me it?