BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]

[Precept]

I just deployed for 9.5 months ... and dropped my cell phone down to the basics while I was gone as I wouldn't be using it. It cost me 9 bucks a month to do so; surely to hell a recruit could even manage to get that little bit of fiscal management correct when in St. Jean for a mere 10 weeks?

Depending on the carrier you can actually get them to stop service on the phone. Meaning they cut off your service and you don't have to pay for the number of months you ask. Then you don't have to do what you described. Call them up when you're ready and they will continue service and billing cycle from that day. You can do it with internet providers too, and probably TV if you had the right company. Just a thought.

 

[armyvern]

Depending on the carrier you can actually get them to stop service on the phone. Meaning they cut off your service and you don't have to pay for the number of months you ask. Then you don't have to do what you described. Call them up when you're ready and they will continue service and billing cycle from that day. You can do it with internet providers too, and probably TV if you had the right company. Just a thought.

I understand that. I spoke with them; with my carrier --- I could pause service for the minimal fee without paying the full contract price, but the months paid at minimum still counted towards my contract time. Or I could have killed it for nothing while I was gone, but still owed them 10 months at full price when I restarted.

 

[Ayrsayle]

From my limited experience, I think the main push behind allowing cell phone use is one of maintaining morale - For most of us on our DEO BMOQ, we all have families and external considerations. We had no electronic use for the first 5 weeks and were slowly given more and more freedoms with them as our performance improved. There were/are, of course, some who spend way to much time on their phones and as a result failed tests/performance/physical fitness requirements and were either re-coursed or dismissed from the forces. Seems like the system is already set up to deal with those who can't manage their time.

Is it a distraction? Undeniably so - if the candidate can't manage his time. Something to consider however is that Basic itself now has mandated "distractions" anyway - Movie nights are mandatory for the first 5 weeks, we are instructed to take breaks, and I get constantly harassed by staff all the time for spending my weekends on base polishing boots or packing for the field. I simply scheduled my boot polishing time as time I could also spend talking with the wife via bluetooth. Performance stayed close to the same while still keeping the home life happy.

Again, the issue comes down to maturity of the recruits/cadets rather then the electronics themselves.

 

[fauntania]

I don't see how you could take home $500 a month as an officer cadet.  I mean, the pay scale for regular force NCM's is $2,663 gross for the month.  The math is just not making sense to me.

 

[Ayrsayle]

I don't see how you could take home $500 a month as an officer cadet.  I mean, the pay scale for regular force NCM's is $2,663 gross for the month.  The math is just not making sense to me.

Probably referring to Cadets at RMC - they are paid on a different scale then Reg Force DEO Cadets. A first year RMC Cadet is only making 1487, subtract room and board (i assume around 600), plus others and 500ish doesn't seem unreasonable.

 

[GnyHwy]

From my limited experience, I think the main push behind allowing cell phone use is one of maintaining morale - For most of us on our DEO BMOQ, we all have families and external considerations. We had no electronic use for the first 5 weeks and were slowly given more and more freedoms with them as our performance improved. There were/are, of course, some who spend way to much time on their phones and as a result failed tests/performance/physical fitness requirements and were either re-coursed or dismissed from the forces. Seems like the system is already set up to deal with those who can't manage their time.

Is it a distraction? Undeniably so - if the candidate can't manage his time. Something to consider however is that Basic itself now has mandated "distractions" anyway - Movie nights are mandatory for the first 5 weeks, we are instructed to take breaks, and I get constantly harassed by staff all the time for spending my weekends on base polishing boots or packing for the field. I simply scheduled my boot polishing time as time I could also spend talking with the wife via bluetooth. Performance stayed close to the same while still keeping the home life happy.

Again, the issue comes down to maturity of the recruits/cadets rather then the electronics themselves.

Everything you have said makes complete sense, and it sounds like your approach to training was very good; unfortunately, you are not the norm.  One slight disagree is the comment about re-course and dismissal if they can't manage their time or are immature.  I don't believe anyone is or should expect that from recruits; they haven't been taught yet, and in a lot of cases, they are just 2 weeks past having their parents organize their time for them.  Mature and organized recruits would be a bonus, not the norm.

If all it takes is a firm prodding and strict control of their gadgets then these recruits who don't know how to manage time yet could be taught properly.  Expecting them to be mature and organized from the outset would be naive on the CF's part.

BTW, I would be fine with gadgets from day 1.  Just not during works hours and for only an hour or so in the evening.  I believe this would strike the balance, where good students would still get their time and use it wisely, and the not so good students would be restricted.

 

[DexOlesa]

BTW, I would be fine with gadgets from day 1.  Just not during works hours and for only an hour or so in the evening.  I believe this would strike the balance, where good students would still get their time and use it wisely, and the not so good students would be restricted.

This was in essence how our course staff worked it

 

[armyvern]

I agree Jim but it's the CF way, punish everyone , we certainly wouldn't want to have someone or an individual stand out and be made an example of.

Well, from experience, I'd call BS on that. I make a habit of holding those accountable who deserve to be held such and I don't personally know of any supervisors who harken to 'collective' punishment as a habit. Let me be clear, I am not averse to 'collective' punishment when warranted, but it's very rare.

I'd like to know what Units you've served with, and where, to see if I can begin to believe that your statement above reflects "your" reality.

 

[spacedude98]

Although I'm on the fence of this since I will be just starting up BMQ in January, I like it because me and my girlfriend are expecting our first child in march and I will be away. That is the only upside I can think of this rule change, other then that I don't think your facebook or twitter or what ever is that important.

 

[Tank Troll]

Well, from experience, I'd call BS on that. I make a habit of holding those accountable who deserve to be held such and I don't personally know of any supervisors who harken to 'collective' punishment as a habit. Let me be clear, I am not averse to 'collective' punishment when warranted, but it's very rare.

I'd like to know what Units you've served with, and where, to see if I can begin to believe that your statement above reflects "your" reality.

At some of the schools I've taught at, collective punishment for the course is the norm, how ever I've never seen it at a regiment or unit. Though when I was in Recce Sqn in the Strats it seemed like we were being collectively punished on a number of occasions

 

[Jarnhamar]

For the first 4 or 5 weeks take electronic devices away. Members get them on the weekends if they get the weekends off.
After 5 weeks members can earn them or something. If members get caught breaking the rule hiding cell phones or whatever then they loose their weekends.

We have like battalion sized MIR and recourse platoons.  The higher ups need to realize that the CF should be a competitive organization and there are a LOT of people wanting to get in. There is no shortage of people who want to join us, there are very long line ups and even longer wait lists.  Healthy in shape physically fit people. It seems like a lot of the recruits we're getting are weak, have a big sense of entitlement, problems at home etc..  In Borden listening to their instructors point out all the troops that shouldn't be there but manage to tenaciously hang on to loop holes and work the system was really disappointing.

The more we let in people that can't disconnect from xbox the internet and all things electronic the more we will deal with troops trying to blow off exercises coming up with fake home problems faking injuries and other silly excuses.

We're not training these guys and girls to be resilient we're training them to look for chances to take a knee.

Some of us still set bad examples. Leaving Montfort in Ottawa I saw a young captain walking towards me along the sidewalk. She was talking on a cell phone with a briefcase in the other so I just checked my arms instead of saluting/ I'm not even sure what she did but she attempted to do something and I heard her cell bounce off the ground as I passed.

Being an instructor at a recruit school really doesn't sound appealing at all.

 

[SentryMAn]

I did BMOQ this summer. An RMC Cadet takes home $500 a month after they deduct everything away.

RMC = Free tuition, Free Books, they deduct money for Lodging from your $1487/month.

So you exit your studies with a highly regarded Education from a great school, zero debt(unless you were foolish enough to rack up Credit card or buy cars, etc), had to "live" on $500 a month spending money, have 3/4 years of pension accumulated and a job to enter into where you make close to 30% more then a DEO entrant.

I would be crying a river of tears to fill the Niagra Falls twice over that too.

I too would have chosen the 6 years and $60-65,000 in debt, paying for Room/Board out of my own pocket that's substandard, working 20-50 hrs a week while trying to maintain a decent GPA while graduating with a Degree and NO job prospects past saying "Ya'll want to up size for $.79 more?"

There were MANY Months I lived on less then $500 in my pocket, including paying rent/food/entertainment.

:

I'd love to tell you it was 15-20 years ago, but I graduated in 2005, so it's not ancient history at all.

 

[DexOlesa]

As I said. It is a great deal if you are fresh out of high school and debt free. I however was not I had already racked up $50,000 in debt from prior schooling, etc. My monthly payments between everything are $700+

 

[SentryMAn]

As I said. It is a great deal if you are fresh out of high school and debt free. I however was not I had already racked up $50,000 in debt from prior schooling, etc. My monthly payments between everything are $700+

bad decisions on ones part to rack up debt should have been thought about when said debt was being racked up.  <-- this wasn't meant to be directed at a person but more of a general statement.

DEO entrant makes 3644/month.  That should give you enough to pay all your bills, living expenses and still have enough left to enjoy yourself.  Not to
mention if you were SMART and had all your correct paperwork you would have been exempt from paying the Meals and Lodging(as I was).


Not a personal attack, please do not take it as such.

 

[ballz]

How's the world look up there from that pedestal SentryMAN? Is it hard to see everything when you have to look down your nose at it?

I see from your profile you've made a decision or two that you'd like to take back as well. Maybe you should give that a thought or two before you go telling someone else what decisions they should have made. :

 

[SentryMAn]

How's the world look up there from that pedestal SentryMAN? Is it hard to see everything when you have to look down your nose at it?

I see from your profile you've made a decision or two that you'd like to take back as well. Maybe you should give that a thought or two before you go telling someone else what decisions they should have made. :

???
I don't see where I told the user their decisions were wrong?  Now I'll say this if it's $50k in student loans and they don't have anything to show for it then yes, I would say that's a whole hearted bad decision as anyone with a brain in their head woudl also say.  I also understand that debt isn't always the result of poor decisions(although even a bad marriage is the results of poor decisions...lol).

I think you missed the part where I stated I was explaining that I was in the same situation so I'll clarify a bit.  I walked into the forces with 50k in student loans and a Degree, I was paid as a 2Lt while on BMOQ.  I was able to do it and live a life that was alright for me.  You took what I said out of Context and read with a different meaning then the way I put it.  I Even paid for an apartment and family, bills, and Loans while away.

There was never a point where I climbed up on any "pedestal" nor did I look down my nose at anyone, sorry you feel that way.  But I see from YOUR Profile that you know everything and anything about other users, and have a ton of Military Experience being an untrained Ocdt. 

 

[DexOlesa]

Well seeing as I was a career pilot before I joined, (hence the school debt) and am one again. I do have something to show for it. Just not a degree that would allow for DEO. I would love to be a DEO entrant making 3500 but I was an RMC ROTP student where they charge you $700 a month room and board non negotiable out of your 1487 a month gross, add in taxes, ei, etc. etc. you get 258 a paycheque.

 

[MJP]

:goodpost:  Was meant for ballz's post you dudes type to fast.

I would reel in a bit sentry.  DexOlesa has rationalized and explained his decision in this thread.  That you choose to ignore that and make a broad brush holier than thou statements only further highlights your ignorance.  To often in today's society folks bemoan their massive educational loans and think they need to be given a break (occupiers I am looking at you).  Here is a person who has realized their debt and is making an honest effort to pay it off.  They realized that their current job made that fiscally impossible and made the incredibly hard decision to release for higher paying pastures.  I think as hard as it probably was it was the right decision.

I think you missed the part where I stated I was explaining that I was in the same situation so I'll clarify a bit.  I walked into the forces with 50k in student loans and a Degree, I was paid as a 2Lt while on BMOQ. 

Right you were a 2lt for how long?  Not very if you were DEO.  Dex was an OCDT at RMC, where he would have remained at Ocdt level pay for a much longer period.  Not so conducive over a longer time period for paying off loans.

You took what I said out of Context and read with a different meaning then the way I put it.  I Even paid for an apartment and family, bills, and Loans while away.

Maybe you should put things into context

 

[ballz]

I don't see where I told the user their decisions were wrong?

Wasn't you that wrote this then?

Well bad decisions on your part to rack up debt should have been thought about when the debt was being racked up.

Sorry for bothering you then.

EDIT: To remove some stuff

 

[SentryMAn]

I'll bow out of this argument now as it is un-winnable for either side.

Back on topic, electronics during at least the Indoc period should be limited.