BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]
- Thread starter HItorMiss
- Start date
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Many Apologies to anyone that took offense to what I posted, Re-reading it I do see where it went wrong. Thus is the life of attempting to supply ample information over the internet in the least amount of time possible. Parts are missed, connotation is absent, tone is missed which was my biggest mistake.
I would never and have never issued a personal attack against another user and I apologize deeply if my typed words were taking personally.
It was not my intention to rile up the crowd, I have immense respect for those who serve, have serve and are waiting to serve, it's why I'm here and why I'm trying to be part of.
I would never and have never issued a personal attack against another user and I apologize deeply if my typed words were taking personally.
It was not my intention to rile up the crowd, I have immense respect for those who serve, have serve and are waiting to serve, it's why I'm here and why I'm trying to be part of.
- Reaction score
- 265
- Points
- 980
Hey, from a gy at CFLRS right now:
Why something not broke got fixed I have no clue.
I sometimes find myself wondering how in the hell I managed to get into the Mo, off for Basic, managed to keep a semi sane girlfriend throughout, all without the benefit of Army.ca, Facebook or a frigging mobile phone.
Mudshuvel said:
Why something not broke got fixed I have no clue.
I sometimes find myself wondering how in the hell I managed to get into the Mo, off for Basic, managed to keep a semi sane girlfriend throughout, all without the benefit of Army.ca, Facebook or a frigging mobile phone.
One benefit to this policy is that there is quite the disparity between platoons in training at the Mega. Some platoons show up on day one and can keep electronics, others have them removed immediately, etc. There is no policy in place to ensure equal treatment between platoons. On my latest platoon there was also an obvious lack of communication between staff which made things incredibly difficult for us to know what was and wasn't allowed - a clear policy will be a huge benefit because it removes the uncertainty.
I was on the "broken" platoon and was able to see a lot of people loaded onto different courses. One platoon was banned from using payphones, except for five minutes per week, after they complained to the padre that they were banned from the Friday night chapel. Their sister platoon, meanwhile, had their cell phones, etc. from day one.
On my last platoon, we didn't have our cell phones for the first few weeks yet our sister platoons did. A clear, comprehensive policy that wasn't left to the whims of staff would probably help recruits feel that things are more equitable.
I understand that life isn't fair, the military isn't fair, etc. but I think that a lot of the frustrations expressed by recruits stem from what is perceived as an inherent unfairness. I was on a platoon that allowed cell phones and one that didn't. To be honest, the one that allowed cell phones was a much better group than the other... but I honestly don't think that cell phones was the deciding factor. What having cell phones did is give recruits privacy - without them, we knew far too much about people on our platoon (financial troubles, disintegrating relationships, etc.).
That Warrior platoon, the one in the original study, had a member who was caught playing with his Sony PSP (hand held video game system) after lights out. I'm also fairly certain that they lost electronics privileges at least once.
I was on the "broken" platoon and was able to see a lot of people loaded onto different courses. One platoon was banned from using payphones, except for five minutes per week, after they complained to the padre that they were banned from the Friday night chapel. Their sister platoon, meanwhile, had their cell phones, etc. from day one.
On my last platoon, we didn't have our cell phones for the first few weeks yet our sister platoons did. A clear, comprehensive policy that wasn't left to the whims of staff would probably help recruits feel that things are more equitable.
I understand that life isn't fair, the military isn't fair, etc. but I think that a lot of the frustrations expressed by recruits stem from what is perceived as an inherent unfairness. I was on a platoon that allowed cell phones and one that didn't. To be honest, the one that allowed cell phones was a much better group than the other... but I honestly don't think that cell phones was the deciding factor. What having cell phones did is give recruits privacy - without them, we knew far too much about people on our platoon (financial troubles, disintegrating relationships, etc.).
That Warrior platoon, the one in the original study, had a member who was caught playing with his Sony PSP (hand held video game system) after lights out. I'm also fairly certain that they lost electronics privileges at least once.
What these recruits need to learn is that "inherent unfairness" is a fact of life in the military and they won't always have course staff and padres to bitch and moan to. Case in point, overseas my troop had to live in hard OP's, sleeping in the dirt and eating rations for over 3 months straight. The other troop in our sqn was living out of FOB's. By the logic of these new "soldiers," that isn't fair and my troop should have complained that we were treated differently.
My god, I've only got 5 years in and the differences in attitudes from the younger troops from when I joined are staggering.......in a bad way.
My god, I've only got 5 years in and the differences in attitudes from the younger troops from when I joined are staggering.......in a bad way.
A
aesop081
Guest
megsy said:
Yet, you folks are always in such a hurry to create a Facebook group and get to know eachother right away. :
The rest of your "but its not fair" post.........I weep for the CF's future.
You folks will get a hard dose of reality soon enough.
CDN Aviator,
If you were to assign blame for the new policy, who would you blame?
1) Some staff, who allowed electronics from the get go - because, I'm guessing, their own empathy.
2) The recruits, who would and should take every bone thrown to them.
I'm thinking the recruits don't set the standards.
If you were to assign blame for the new policy, who would you blame?
1) Some staff, who allowed electronics from the get go - because, I'm guessing, their own empathy.
2) The recruits, who would and should take every bone thrown to them.
I'm thinking the recruits don't set the standards.
A
aesop081
Guest
zerosum said:
I never said recruits were setting the standard.
A
aesop081
Guest
zerosum said:
Everyone.
The candidates who VR because they cant spend 5 weeks without their toys and the CF for giving in to them in the name of a lower VR rate.
"The candidates who VR because they cant spend 5 weeks without their toys ... "
There are always going to be those. If the military were to offer free toys 2 months before basic ... there would be those that VR because they weren't offered 3 months before.
There are always going to be those. If the military were to offer free toys 2 months before basic ... there would be those that VR because they weren't offered 3 months before.
A
aesop081
Guest
zerosum said:
So why cater to them ? We're not hurting...........
Institutional inertia. A few years ago we couldn't get enough people in the door. The economy was good so the CF had to compete with lots of other employers for a portion of the labour pool. Combine that with the growth the CF was undergoing at the time and there was a real squeeze on CFRG (to which CFLRS belongs) to get things done. That lead to the mindset we are seeing right now.CDN Aviator said:
The aforementioned mindset will ta ke time to catch up to the new ground rules. When it does perhaps we will see some policy changes?
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 230
Okay, I tried to read through the entire thing, but at page six I realized that the horse had been dead for a few pages.
I tend to side with Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Seggie. First, as a school teacher, I deal with this on a daily basis. For those of you wishing to go back in time, I'd just like to let you know that I'm never getting my chalkboards back either - that change is here to stay, and PEDs are as well. Mike is correct - we need to teach the proper etiquette for using these devices. Jim is also correct - there shouldn't be a problem allowing them to have their devices, and if there is corrective discipline needs to be enforced to make sure it doesn't happen twice. Students do NOT want to take their phones out in my class - that'a the environment I have set up.
Is liquor banned for the entire 13 weeks? Because we'll have 80% of the class hammered each day? No women allowed, because all the male recruits won't be able to concentrate?
You've been handed a decision - now go figure out how to work within that decision. Some of my students were not very happy with being allowed their phones on them during class , because they now knew I had that many more chances to remove it from them as they have a specific set of rules to follow.
They have their PEDs now - suck it up and deal with the ones who can't use them properly. That's the problem to deal with, not the fact that a decision passed by you, will not change, and no amount of complaining is going to reverse it.
Adapt and change, my friends.
I tend to side with Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Seggie. First, as a school teacher, I deal with this on a daily basis. For those of you wishing to go back in time, I'd just like to let you know that I'm never getting my chalkboards back either - that change is here to stay, and PEDs are as well. Mike is correct - we need to teach the proper etiquette for using these devices. Jim is also correct - there shouldn't be a problem allowing them to have their devices, and if there is corrective discipline needs to be enforced to make sure it doesn't happen twice. Students do NOT want to take their phones out in my class - that'a the environment I have set up.
Is liquor banned for the entire 13 weeks? Because we'll have 80% of the class hammered each day? No women allowed, because all the male recruits won't be able to concentrate?
You've been handed a decision - now go figure out how to work within that decision. Some of my students were not very happy with being allowed their phones on them during class , because they now knew I had that many more chances to remove it from them as they have a specific set of rules to follow.
They have their PEDs now - suck it up and deal with the ones who can't use them properly. That's the problem to deal with, not the fact that a decision passed by you, will not change, and no amount of complaining is going to reverse it.
Adapt and change, my friends.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
As I am on my third weekend of reserve BMQ I believe I have a position to comment from. First off I was fully expecting to have to go without my smart phone for BMQ. As I am 40 years old and have lived longer without one, then with one, this wasn't going to be a big deal for me regardless. Prior to BMQ I have seen people litterally go through withdrawl symptoms similar to crack addicts by simply depriving them of their devices, be it an iPod or cell phone........and that is just sad. I liked the idea that my course mates would be unplugged and more likely to spend off time making new friends that in turn would sponsor team work.
So did I find a room with 30 plus people with "i" thingies controlling their every move? Do I see a group of rebels texting their girlfriends when the class teacher (insert rank) isn't looking? Do I see the recruits focus waning due to the ease of access to their electronic gizmos? The answer to these and all other concerns mentioned before is NO. Will there be, sure, someone will at some point, forget to turn the ringer off and get a call in the middle of drill. Course staff will deal with it, and I'm sure I will be better fit after completing a round of plank and push ups.
Has the team work suffered ? Not that I have seen. We each have taken the time to contact family, text friends, and deal with other personal life matters. I was also pleased to see that once we all had our techno fix out of the way we interacted with each other, made friends, discussed the days lectures, coached each other on whatever.
I personally used my phone to:
Solve a business matter that could have cost me thousands if left unattended. (self employed)
Visit canadianforces.ca to review rank structure. Felt more at ease knowing I knew a person's rank.
Called and talked to my wife. Talk to my daughter who is still a little concerned with my military choice.
Checked and responded to personal and business email.
So the question is: Was I more or less focused knowing that my business was looked after, that my knowledge of rank structures was fresh, that my daughter was going to bed without incident, that my wife was happy for same? of course I was. Sure the results could have been the reverse business problems not resolved, wife and kid pissed off etc. Either way I know whats going on.
Life changes, change with it, move on or be left behind taking about the good old days with whom ever you manage to force to listen. For every action there is a equal and opposite reaction. There will be issues, course staff are more then ready to deal with.
So did I find a room with 30 plus people with "i" thingies controlling their every move? Do I see a group of rebels texting their girlfriends when the class teacher (insert rank) isn't looking? Do I see the recruits focus waning due to the ease of access to their electronic gizmos? The answer to these and all other concerns mentioned before is NO. Will there be, sure, someone will at some point, forget to turn the ringer off and get a call in the middle of drill. Course staff will deal with it, and I'm sure I will be better fit after completing a round of plank and push ups.
Has the team work suffered ? Not that I have seen. We each have taken the time to contact family, text friends, and deal with other personal life matters. I was also pleased to see that once we all had our techno fix out of the way we interacted with each other, made friends, discussed the days lectures, coached each other on whatever.
I personally used my phone to:
Solve a business matter that could have cost me thousands if left unattended. (self employed)
Visit canadianforces.ca to review rank structure. Felt more at ease knowing I knew a person's rank.
Called and talked to my wife. Talk to my daughter who is still a little concerned with my military choice.
Checked and responded to personal and business email.
So the question is: Was I more or less focused knowing that my business was looked after, that my knowledge of rank structures was fresh, that my daughter was going to bed without incident, that my wife was happy for same? of course I was. Sure the results could have been the reverse business problems not resolved, wife and kid pissed off etc. Either way I know whats going on.
Life changes, change with it, move on or be left behind taking about the good old days with whom ever you manage to force to listen. For every action there is a equal and opposite reaction. There will be issues, course staff are more then ready to deal with.
A
aesop081
Guest
vehtech said:
That is all nice and dandy but none of it is the issue. Staff will deal with inapropriate behaviour as it always has.
People were in fact, VRing over not having their "iToys" (see the posts that started this by Bulletmagnet). Rather than sticking to our guns, policy was changed in order to retain these people. Does someone who cant go a few weeks without electronic gadgets sound like the kind of person the CF wants ? What will these people do when the realities of military life hits them ?
The CF would have done better for itself in the long run to look at how it selects people.
I believe i am also in somewhat in a position to comment on this.........
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 230
Regardless of why the decision was made, you're not going to see an increase in the amount of undesirables. If you do think so, then perhaps you need to take a look outside military teaching/workplace and see what % of undesirables are there.
All the policy has done is helped out the people who can act responsibly. If staff are dealing with discipline as they always have, then no harm has been done here. Same with allowing land lines on bases, and telegraphs before that.
All the policy has done is helped out the people who can act responsibly. If staff are dealing with discipline as they always have, then no harm has been done here. Same with allowing land lines on bases, and telegraphs before that.
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