CAF Security Forces [Split from RCN Anti Drone Weapon]
- Thread starter Underway
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 6,788
- Points
- 1,140
We can't fill one evening a week, one weekend a month PRes jobs right now. How are we going to fill the 2300 graveyard shift on Christmas Eve, at multiple locations across the country, for the next several decades?With respect to the business of securing places and securing things -
It seems to me that the RAF Regiment types with WMIKs and Mortars and Rapiers securing the airfields are doing a different job than the RAF Police, and the MOD Police, controlling access to Hangars, Towers, Control Rooms and other sensitive areas.
The RAF Regiment may kill you but they can't arrest you. Much like the Household Division.
And I will continue to plunk for a local element. Make them 10:90 units if it makes you feel better. With some portion of the 90 being on shift at any given time.
....
RAF Recruitment | RAF Police | Royal Air Force
As a member of the RAF Police, you will conduct criminal and security investigations. specialising in many areas from Aviation Security to Law Enforcement.recruitment.raf.mod.uk
My occupation struggles to retain RegF people because of the shift work, how are you going to attract and retain shift workers on a part-time basis?
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 32,582
- Points
- 1,160
If you just wait a bit, there will be an ARes General - somewhere in the system - bragging about how the Territorial Defense Battalion Groups can take all that on for the RCAF (in the expectation that an appropriate promotion and gong will be forthcoming)
QV
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 3,222
- Points
- 1,010
I've commented on this over the years a few times. I maintain the MP branch should be burned down and rebuilt into a CAF Force Protection Unit potentially falling under DGDS as that organization's operational arm with it's main aim doing D&S on military installations worldwide, CFBs, deployed ops, embassies.
Divest almost all domestic policing functions to local civ (the call volume is not there), unit disciplinary matters handled by local chain of command, retain an investigative body (smaller version of NIS) for serious internal issues.
CAF needs to ditch "policing" altogether. It would retain all it's specialized functions (CP/air marshal etc) and grow a few such as K9, surveillance. It would do convoy security, FOB security and PW handling.
It would provide interesting and diverse career paths for those in the MOS. It could still be augmented by Cmre at lesser sites, but that overall cost which is massive, could be dramatically reduced with the recovered funds being shifted elsewhere.
Security for sensitive installations would remain in-house to the CAF, not contracted out, as that should be for accountability. There would still be career progression, postings and deployments. This would free up RCAF, Cdn Army, RCN personnel to focus on primary job and not be tagged with a "secondary duty" of WASF or whatever.
I don't know how much PY growth is needed, but I suspect existing numbers would be sufficient for securing the real sensitive sites and assessing whether Cmre should be phased out or not in the areas with a lesser need. There would need to be a lot of cost moves initially to get everyone where they needed to be and up and running. Probably need more NCMs then officers, so that ratio ought be re-jigged... my spitballing -again.
Divest almost all domestic policing functions to local civ (the call volume is not there), unit disciplinary matters handled by local chain of command, retain an investigative body (smaller version of NIS) for serious internal issues.
CAF needs to ditch "policing" altogether. It would retain all it's specialized functions (CP/air marshal etc) and grow a few such as K9, surveillance. It would do convoy security, FOB security and PW handling.
It would provide interesting and diverse career paths for those in the MOS. It could still be augmented by Cmre at lesser sites, but that overall cost which is massive, could be dramatically reduced with the recovered funds being shifted elsewhere.
Security for sensitive installations would remain in-house to the CAF, not contracted out, as that should be for accountability. There would still be career progression, postings and deployments. This would free up RCAF, Cdn Army, RCN personnel to focus on primary job and not be tagged with a "secondary duty" of WASF or whatever.
I don't know how much PY growth is needed, but I suspect existing numbers would be sufficient for securing the real sensitive sites and assessing whether Cmre should be phased out or not in the areas with a lesser need. There would need to be a lot of cost moves initially to get everyone where they needed to be and up and running. Probably need more NCMs then officers, so that ratio ought be re-jigged... my spitballing -again.
- Reaction score
- 10,061
- Points
- 1,360
CFNCIU has always been under CFINTCOM. I was more questioning why it needs to have its own trade and be taken away from the MPs.
I was also poking fun at CFINTCOM being a command. It worked just fine when it was CDI under VCDS.
Just remember a Radian is 60° degrees in the Navy, not 57.296°.
- Reaction score
- 8,332
- Points
- 1,160
How about the same way that 7-11 does?
Did you read any of that stuff that I posted about the RAF Regiment vs RAF Police vs MOD Police?
Did you note that they were asking for a commitment of 27 days a year for the Reserve component?
Did you note that the requirement was for people who lived adjacent to RAF fields to apply locally? These weren't jobs for Tcheuchters in London.
- Reaction score
- 27,893
- Points
- 1,090
For security tasks that include levels of escalation up to and including the use of deadly force, there is a requirement for regular training and certification. In your 27 days a year model, how much of that time is actual useful employment, and how much is training and certification?
Even if we assume a mild one day monthly of such regenerative activities, you've just lost 44% of the output. The value proposition is minimal.
Even if we assume a mild one day monthly of such regenerative activities, you've just lost 44% of the output. The value proposition is minimal.
- Reaction score
- 6,788
- Points
- 1,140
My bad... I assumed you were trying to be serious.
There is no comparison between hiring a clerk to work at 7-11, and hiring a person to use deadly force to protect the national interest. Not only are the jobs very different, but the kind of suitable candidate is entirely different. Even on the most basic level, 7-11 has the benefit of offering you more money to work that shift, the CAF does not. You get paid the same on Christmas day as you get paid for a random Tuesday in Feb.
Did you read it? Under every wing they listed a RAF Regiment Sqn, and a reserve Sqn... Who do you think does the bulk of the daily shift work? The 27 days a year reservist, or the RAF Regiment guy getting a salary to work all year long?
@dapaterson already covered the 27 days, and others have already covered that not every base has a large enough population center close by to make the local reserves a realistic possibility.
I'm definitely not opposed to following the RAF model of a regular component doing the daily work, with reservists trained and on location to augment for domestic and overseas taskings. What I am opposed to is the notion that a job like 24/7 security is best done with reservists, or that filling those positions with part-timers would be easy.
The UK also has a population density supportive of this approach. Their bases are invariably close to population centers, they have half again the population of Canada in an area smaller than Newfoundland and Labrador.
Canada is much more spread out, and several bases that are in play are in areas highly unlikely to be supportive of an ‘able to be relied upon’ local PRes strength. If Canada also decides to develop a PRes security force capability, cool; but it should never be allowed to be baked in to planning assumptions for routline ops until and unless several years of experience proves otherwise.
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 7,108
- Points
- 1,160
Last FY the MP responded to 40,006 calls for service in Canada. I'm not sure if that's alot or not very much for a police force?
Offloading it to civpol would probably require some additional hiring and funding for local detachments.
I also wonder if civpol would ignore some of the regular or routine calls the MP get.
Scrap the NDA act or have local police enforce it and things like NDs and disobeying lawful orders?
How many MP would it take to provide an adequate level of security?
OPS answered 400K calls in 2023.
Deals to be made with provinces and municipalities. They already send sexual assault cases to civ police as I understand it
Quite likely and I bet they wouldn’t pursue a lot of things.
Service offences remain the books for summary hearings? Maybe bring back regimental police?
My guess is a lot. And would they still get spec pay?
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 7,108
- Points
- 1,160
And only around 1500 officers I think. Earning their paycheck I guess.
My understanding is complainants can choose to have civilian police investigate or it remain with CFNIS. I've heard the CAF has higher conviction rates than civilian police when it came to sexual assault but also heard the opposite.
I bet that would upset higher ups when civilian police, who especially don't care what their rank is, blow off minor shit.
Only to have the CO decide it's not worth pursuing because someone is a good guy/ays hockey.
Were regimental police able to lay charges on their own violation?
I don't see why they should keep spec pay being glorified security guards. The CAF could appeal to their sense of duty and explain taking away spec pay will help the CAF afford more positions.
"You like time off don't you?!"
Not a lot. In a year on the road I was likely over 1000 calls. Granted many would be two member calls. But that also includes a ton of super minor stuff that could just as easily not even get dispatched and be dealt with through, eg, online reporting or collision centers.
“Calls for service” stats can be tough to compare; you need to know what precisely is getting included.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 32,582
- Points
- 1,160
Never too soon to make fun of MPs murder-death-killing an animal.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 32,582
- Points
- 1,160
lenaitch
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 3,756
- Points
- 1,160
There is no precedent for a federal policing contract in Ontario so we a split-balling, but if it followed the current OPP contract model, a place like Pet or Borden would simply be rolled into the local detachment. Even when absorbing a municipal service, they will no longer establish a dedicate detachment. Very briefly state, a contract involves a combination of a per-capita amount plus a calls-for-service amount (for initial contracts, that number is drawn from existing records for, I believe, three years). For that you get a police service; no site security, property checks, key control, etc. The ability/authority to control or limit people on the property would be questionable. Anything that is specific under the NDA, federal traffic regs, etc. would be difficult, both because of the movement of personnel but their concept of 'closest car'. It may be that a neighbouring detachment unit is closer. I could really see this happening at Borden.
It would largely be new ground since a CF facility is both a work space and a residential space. They would have to sort out some kind of equivalent to a Police Services Board which is a requirement under the Community Safety and Policing Services Act. There would also be no communications linkage between the police service and local CoC on individual incidents, even if they impacted operational matters, as I assume there is with MPs. As well, the CoC would have no input into how, why or when the policing service is delivered, which could be a good thing or bad thing.
If it involved a municipal PS like Ottawa or North Bay, there is no model for contract policing. Municipal PSs do contract policing of other municipalities but they are free to do it in any way that makes both parties happy and so long it satisfies the Ministry that it is 'adequate and effective'.
