CAF Security Forces [Split from RCN Anti Drone Weapon]

[Kirkhill]

You seem to be lumping both the UAS threat into ground security issues, and the Mil/Civ airports into one issue as well.

I’m not sure what the exactly Canadian breakdown is for UAS, I know it is similar to that down here, that UAS of a certain type are limited to accredited drone pilots, while others can be bought and flown by anyone, but as to where the break down is made I don’t know.

So far no civilian UAS can be flown by tether, so the fiber optic controlled drones would be a clear indication of hostile intent.
Non tethered drones can be limited by various measures.

I’m again not sure if you seem to be suggesting that the CA setup CUAS units at every vital point/airfield in Canada? Because if so, I think you are seriously pissing into the wind.

Not that there isn’t a potential threat, but that the cost and potential issues with the ‘cure’ may be more harmful that anyone is willing to swallow at this point outside of limited areas.

I'm asking, when the rule book is thrown out, whose responsibility is it to protect the structures and institutions of society and keep it working.

If your first course of action is to appeal to a rule book and tell me "that's not allowed" then you are misunderstanding me.

We have rules. Our enemies both exploit and ignore them. Our rules are not their rules.

 

[Furniture]

I'm asking, when the rule book is thrown out, whose responsibility is it to protect the structures and institutions of society and keep it working.

If your first course of action is to appeal to a rule book and tell me "that's not allowed" then you are misunderstanding me.

We have rules. Our enemies both exploit and ignore them. Our rules are not their rules.

That's a bridge we'll have to cross when we get there.

Trying to solve all possible problems, before we solve the very real CAF problems first will lead to not making progress on anything, or as Frederick The Great said "He who defends everything defends nothing"

 

[Kirkhill]

That's a bridge we'll have to cross when we get there.

Trying to solve all possible problems, before we solve the very real CAF problems first will lead to not making progress on anything, or as Frederick The Great said "He who defends everything defends nothing"

I'm sorry but I kind of feel the question lies at the heart of the purpose of the CAF. The corollary is @FJAG 's mobilization plan. Where is it and who is responsible for its absence?

 

[lenaitch]

Seemingly Dundurn was unable to achieve that same success, and ask Gagetown how things went the year they thought they were not going to support the moose hunt.

I don't know the details of those events but it sounds like the somebody either at the DND/CAF/Federal government acquiescing to some local use request. Civilians cannot, as a right, access DND property.

 

[Furniture]

I'm sorry but I kind of feel the question lies at the heart of the purpose of the CAF. The corollary is @FJAG 's mobilization plan. Where is it and who is responsible for its absence?

The CAF exists to defend Canada, but that doesn't mean everywhere, all at once, on the slight chance something bad might happen.

We need to make our bases and critical CAF infrastructure secure, so we can launch from those places to defend the rest of Canada.

 

[lenaitch]

I'm asking, when the rule book is thrown out, whose responsibility is it to protect the structures and institutions of society and keep it working.

If your first course of action is to appeal to a rule book and tell me "that's not allowed" then you are misunderstanding me.

We have rules. Our enemies both exploit and ignore them. Our rules are not their rules.

Your argument sounds akin to if crime gets out of control in a municipality it is appropriate to call in the military. In the first instance, protecting civilian property is the responsibility of the civilian authorities. As in past conflicts, establish a 'home guard' or something like that. Most large police services have auxiliary members who can be activated and 'deputized' (given full independent police powers) is required. In some cases, like nuclear power plants, they have their own armed security.

If you want the CAF to be positioned as first line security for all domestic critical infrastructure in Canada, you're going to need a bigger boat.

 

[Jarnhamar]

We should get a half-section of reservists to see how easy they can access restricted areas on bases and see how far they can get/look at what kind of notional damage they could do.

Based off these dudes.

 

[brihard]

We should get a half-section of reservists to see how easy they can access restricted areas on bases and see how far they can get/look at what kind of notional damage they could do.

Based off these dudes.

I was thinking that the other day; CAF should absolutely have a ‘red team’.

It would be hard to argue with video of a UAS hovering over a parked CC330 for twenty seconds, then sliding just off to the side and dropping a Nerf football on the tarmac beside the plane.

 

[daftandbarmy]

We should get a half-section of reservists to see how easy they can access restricted areas on bases and see how far they can get/look at what kind of notional damage they could do.

Based off these dudes.

As we saw, even a few civvies with rattle cans can waltz into an operational RAF base, in the UK, on scooters and get away scot free.

'Testing defenses' is pretty much a waste of time unless you adequately resource and prepare the guard force for any fixed facility.

Having both manned defenses for, and tested from the outside in, various fixed sites (airfields, navy bases, fuel depots etc) during ops and exercises even 'well prepared' defenses can be breached pretty easily.

And given the advances in technology since then, as we've seen with drones, the challenge is only that much harder.

 

[Remius]

We should get a half-section of reservists to see how easy they can access restricted areas on bases and see how far they can get/look at what kind of notional damage they could do.

Based off these dudes.

They did that a long time ago. I was not there on that one but the ones that were had a good time doing that sort of thing. Only rule for the particular location being “tested” was don’t go past the green doors.

Lots of lessons learned apparently but the exercise was never repeated. Was a one time sort of thing.

 

[KevinB]

One may want to do more digging on both the Red Cell issues down here, and some Canadian efforts as well.

Yes the concept is valid, but quite often things go to excess.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Red Cell resources would be better spent on Blue Cell, at this moment in time.

 

[daftandbarmy]

One may want to do more digging on both the Red Cell issues down here, and some Canadian efforts as well.

Yes the concept is valid, but quite often things go to excess.

Yes they can...

Internal military report blames botched shooter drill on poor organization​

An internal report blames a lack of communication for a debacle on a Canadian Armed Forces base last fall, when masked men taking part in active-shooter drill fired blanks at civil servants who didn’t know it was a training exercise.

During the drill, which took place on Nov. 12 at a service depot at CFB Longue-Pointe in Montreal, military police also confused a racialized employee with a drill participant playing an active shooter and wrestled him to the ground.

An internal report from the local garrison depot commander, obtained by The Canadian Press, says the incident resulted in two workplace injuries, multiple reports of near accidents, “frustration and anger” among local employees and a “strained relationship between management and the union executive.”

Internal military report blames botched shooter drill on poor organization

An internal report blames a lack of communication for a debacle on a Canadian Armed Forces base last fall, when masked men taking part in active-shooter drill fired blanks at civil servants who didn’t know it was a training exercise.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[KevinB]

Yes they can...

Internal military report blames botched shooter drill on poor organization​

An internal report blames a lack of communication for a debacle on a Canadian Armed Forces base last fall, when masked men taking part in active-shooter drill fired blanks at civil servants who didn’t know it was a training exercise.

During the drill, which took place on Nov. 12 at a service depot at CFB Longue-Pointe in Montreal, military police also confused a racialized employee with a drill participant playing an active shooter and wrestled him to the ground.

An internal report from the local garrison depot commander, obtained by The Canadian Press, says the incident resulted in two workplace injuries, multiple reports of near accidents, “frustration and anger” among local employees and a “strained relationship between management and the union executive.”

Internal military report blames botched shooter drill on poor organization

An internal report blames a lack of communication for a debacle on a Canadian Armed Forces base last fall, when masked men taking part in active-shooter drill fired blanks at civil servants who didn’t know it was a training exercise.

www.ctvnews.ca

Go back further.
There were at least two more that went sideways.

 

[OldSolduer]

Go back further.
There were at least two more that went sideways.

This is what happens when "good idea" fairies (who are often woefully short sighted) "freelance" this sort of stuff without thinking it through.

 

[Jarnhamar]

One may want to do more digging on both the Red Cell issues down here, and some Canadian efforts as well.

Yes the concept is valid, but quite often things go to excess.

Definitely. A free for all wouldn’t be productive, especially with embarrassed commanders.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Definitely. A free for all wouldn’t be productive, especially with embarrassed commanders.

It's amazing where you can get to on a base as long as you have a safety vest, clip board and a helmet

 

[OldSolduer]

It's amazing where you can get to on a base as long as you have a safety vest, clip board and a helmet

One of the best is to pose as a "custodian" - a cleaner. You can overhear all sorts of stuff - not all of it unclas.

 

[brihard]

One of the best is to pose as a "custodian" - a cleaner. You can overhear all sorts of stuff - not all of it unclas.

A ‘commissionaire’ escorting two ‘contractors’ could get three people and a large box of God-knows-what almost anywhere.

 

[Kirkhill]

Your argument sounds akin to if crime gets out of control in a municipality it is appropriate to call in the military. In the first instance, protecting civilian property is the responsibility of the civilian authorities. As in past conflicts, establish a 'home guard' or something like that. Most large police services have auxiliary members who can be activated and 'deputized' (given full independent police powers) is required. In some cases, like nuclear power plants, they have their own armed security.

If you want the CAF to be positioned as first line security for all domestic critical infrastructure in Canada, you're going to need a bigger boat.

I agree entirely on the need for a bigger boat. Where can I find one and how soon is it available?

What is that Ukraine plan? Or the Iran plan?

I would like to believe that somebody, someplace has applied some thought to how to manage the situation when everything goes pear-shaped.
My sense is that we have wandered between "It will never happen" and "We can't do anything about it anyway".
We had a plan to invade the States once. Highly improbable. But we had a plan.

There is a rumour out there, along with the 20% pay raise, and a budget increase to 5% of GDP, of the Primary Reserve (to supply in-fills for the Regs) being expanded to 100,000 and a volunteer force of 300,000 being raised. About 1 % of Canada's population.

Lets assume that there are about 100 armouries and Naval Reserve Divisions available. The means that each establishment would have to track 1000 trained reservists and 3000 of the untrained but willing. Presumably each establishment would be tasked with generating a useful sub-unit of 100 or so out of those 4000 people on their roles.

I. I happen to like the rumour. I think it is heading in the right direction with the numbers.
2. How might a body of that strength be employed in different circumstances.
3. How do we build on that?

WW2 saw 1.1 million in uniform out of a population of 11 million - 10%.
Another million or so worked in defence industries - another 10%
Then there were the people on the government payroll.

We have a rumour of a notion to employ 1% of the population in an emergency
In WW2 we actually employed 10 times that.

Ukraine is believed to have an active force of 900,000 personnel and a reserve force of 1,200,000 personnel for a total of 2,100,000 or a bit over 5% of the population. Living in a hot war, and holding the enemy to a draw the Ukrainians are using half the amount of people that we employed in WW2 fighting a war in other peoples' countries.

Why shouldn't there be a plan?