CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia

[Good2Golf]

20-odd years ago I left my hotel in Copenhagen at about 10 O'clock on a Saturday morning. I drove across the new Storebaelt bridge to Jutland and down past Flensburg and Hamburg to Muenchen. I crossed into the Netherlands at Venlo by about 2 O'Clock. By 7 O'Ciock I had crossed the Netherlands and was ensconced in my hotel at the docks in Antwerp.

Sunday mornining I drove from Antwerp, past Brugge, Calais and Dieppe and stopped off at Vimy for lunch. By tea time I was back in Denmark visiting a colleague at Kolding on the German border. Monday morning we were both in the office in Copenhagen at 9 O'Clock.

Netherlands, Denmark. Potayto, Potahto.

My personal preference is Denmark. They already have some nice airfields that might need a bit of refurbishing.

Personnel preference. I’d be just as comfortable flying out of Gilze-Rijen (for CH-147F and CH-146 dets) or Vokel (F35s). I’ve flown out of Gilze-Rijen personally and familiar with Vokel. The Dutch are very solidly integrated into NATO, far more so than Denmark. The Dutch are considered strong facilitators and synchronizers in NATO because they bring not only their English, German, French linguistic competency with them but they also navigate NATO/Euro ‘challenge-space’ very well. Again, just my personnel preference based on past and contemporary experience with NATO and appreciating that Canada is trying to raise its game to be a more involved player and not just an outpost/extended regional player.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Describe “bonkers” please

Touched on a bit already.

People coming home abnormally angry (personal opinion, many members are less resilient than previous generations which compounds the issues).

Based off what I'm hearing there's a lot of "every roto is roto 0". Big frustrations with chains of command.

Also stupidly like an RSM ordering troops to make the CO's bed. Physically it only affects a handful of troops assigned to it. Bigger picture it's like throwing gas on a fire with all the people who are dealing with bullshit themselves.

 

[OldSolduer]

Touched on a bit already.

People coming home abnormally angry (personal opinion, many members are less resilient than previous generations which compounds the issues).

Based off what I'm hearing there's a lot of "every roto is roto 0". Big frustrations with chains of command.

Also stupidly like an RSM ordering troops to make the CO's bed. Physically it only affects a handful of troops assigned to it. Bigger picture it's like throwing gas on a fire with all the people who are dealing with bullshit themselves.

Resiliency is the key word here. Also the tradition of Roto 0 is alive and well I take it.

The RSM needs to be um counselled as to the proper employment of troops.

 

[Ostrozac]

Adding UAS that will do AAR.

AAR of the Canadian MQ-9 still isn’t a given. While air-to-air refuelling of Reapers has been done experimentally, by the US, it’s not (yet) a fully operational capability. Shows promise, though.

 

[dapaterson]

Resiliency is the key word here. Also the tradition of Roto 0 is alive and well I take it.

The RSM needs to be um counselled as to the proper employment of troops.

That's not something that can be counselled out.

It's a release. And let them go to court, because the sworn testimony about their conduct will then be a matter of public record.

 

[rnkelly]

Touched on a bit already.

People coming home abnormally angry (personal opinion, many members are less resilient than previous generations which compounds the issues).

Based off what I'm hearing there's a lot of "every roto is roto 0". Big frustrations with chains of command.

Also stupidly like an RSM ordering troops to make the CO's bed. Physically it only affects a handful of troops assigned to it. Bigger picture it's like throwing gas on a fire with all the people who are dealing with bullshit themselves.

The bed thing didn’t actually happen did it?

 

[markppcli]

I've heard that also.

Was chatting with 2 guys I work with at the bar who are both 1VP guys - not sure when they went but they both enthusiastically said they hated the deployment.

2017, 2020, or 2023. 2020 was awful but that's largely becuase of Covid. Bear in mind there is no shortage of people who've done all three at the MCpl and Sgt level. Very few repeat officers.

...

Apparently a lot of 'confined to barracks' stretched periods not as a punishment, but rather a preventative measure.

It's worth noting that "confined to barracks" in this case means a camp with a gym, gaming centre, small shop, running tracks, restaurant, Timmie's, and a bar. It just means you can't got to Riga or grab a Donair.

The CoC would lecture the troops on how dangerous the situation was & how close things are to kicking off to keep the troops vigilant - yet would fly their immediate families out to Latvia to live with them.

Yeah the TFL to MNB divide is real and frustrating. Being lectured by a guy whose family is in country about the need to be resilient doesn't go over well.

And "something" that seems to have a lot of troops coming back just enraged in a way that they are struggling to deal with - like even to the troops themselves the rage seems hard to justify or explain. The CAF reddit pages even have a few guys who have reached out since returning...

I'm of two minds on this. Troops seems to expect to have a lot of down time and feel that leaving base is an entitlement very quickly. So when that isn't the case its frustrating. The exercises can also be a bit annoying when they arent part of the pta, i don't know that having guys carry their rifles around camp in fighting order to practice increased readiness really teaches anyone anything beyond "this sucks." At the same time some of these soldiers need to look at their pay stubs and pay attention to the first part of the hardship allowance - you should expect some hardship if youre getting that paid to you.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Resiliency is the key word here. Also the tradition of Roto 0 is alive and well I take it.

The RSM needs to be um counselled as to the proper employment of troops.

I sort of associate the foolish bed making incident with a quote on PCCLIGuy's profile.

"The higher the rank, the more necessary it is that boldness should be accompanied by a reflective mind....for with increase in rank it becomes always a matter less of self-sacrifice and more a matter of the preservation of others, and the good of the whole."

Namely, the higher in rank you go the easier it is to stop seeing soldiers as people, instead seeing them as resources. There's a time and place for it but it can be easy to abuse too.

I'm of two minds on this. Troops seems to expect to have a lot of down time and feel that leaving base is an entitlement very quickly. So when that isn't the case its frustrating. The exercises can also be a bit annoying when they arent part of the pta, i don't know that having guys carry their rifles around camp in fighting order to practice increased readiness really teaches anyone anything beyond "this sucks." At the same time some of these soldiers need to look at their pay stubs and pay attention to the first part of the hardship allowance - you should expect some hardship if youre getting that paid to you.

Great points.

 

[dapaterson]

In some ways, it's the difference between command and leadership: command is based on authority, leadership is based on trust.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I sort of associate the foolish bed making incident with a quote on PCCLIGuy's profile.

"The higher the rank, the more necessary it is that boldness should be accompanied by a reflective mind....for with increase in rank it becomes always a matter less of self-sacrifice and more a matter of the preservation of others, and the good of the whole."

Namely, the higher in rank you go the easier it is to stop seeing soldiers as people, instead seeing them as resources. There's a time and place for it but it can be easy to abuse too.


Great points.

IOW:

"Any commander who fails to exceed his authority is not of much use to his subordinates."

Arleigh Burke

 

[Good2Golf]

IOW:

"Any commander who fails to exceed his authority is not of much use to his subordinates."

Arleigh Burke

Mindful of not missing a good time…

“We have met the enemy and have asked them over later for drinks and dancing.”​

— Oliver Hazard Perry

 

[CBH99]

2017, 2020, or 2023. 2020 was awful but that's largely becuase of Covid. Bear in mind there is no shortage of people who've done all three at the MCpl and Sgt level. Very few repeat officers.



It's worth noting that "confined to barracks" in this case means a camp with a gym, gaming centre, small shop, running tracks, restaurant, Timmie's, and a bar. It just means you can't got to Riga or grab a Donair.



Yeah the TFL to MNB divide is real and frustrating. Being lectured by a guy whose family is in country about the need to be resilient doesn't go over well.



I'm of two minds on this. Troops seems to expect to have a lot of down time and feel that leaving base is an entitlement very quickly. So when that isn't the case its frustrating. The exercises can also be a bit annoying when they arent part of the pta, i don't know that having guys carry their rifles around camp in fighting order to practice increased readiness really teaches anyone anything beyond "this sucks." At the same time some of these soldiers need to look at their pay stubs and pay attention to the first part of the hardship allowance - you should expect some hardship if youre getting that paid to you.

All very fair points.

And THIS is why it's important to get both sides of a story - it helps put things in context.

 

[markppcli]

All very fair points.

And THIS is why it's important to get both sides of a story - it helps put things in context.

Yeah i had to go to bat for one of our OPDCs who's troops came back screaming about their mistreatment. Their abuse was pretty severe: having to dig shell scrapes when halted for several hours, putting up cam nets routinely, doing afternoon PD on camp instead of being cut loose at 1400, some even found that when they arrived late to a timing they were spoken to about it and then had it reflect on a feedback note after multiple infractions. So yeah they were obviously treated horribly.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Yeah i had to go to bat for one of our OPDCs who's troops came back screaming about their mistreatment. Their abuse was pretty severe: having to dig shell scrapes when halted for several hours, putting up cam nets routinely, doing afternoon PD on camp instead of being cut loose at 1400, some even found that when they arrived late to a timing they were spoken to about it and then had it reflect on a feedback note after multiple infractions. So yeah they were obviously treated horribly.

The inhumanity.

Has the UN been notified?

 

[brihard]

Yeah i had to go to bat for one of our OPDCs who's troops came back screaming about their mistreatment. Their abuse was pretty severe: having to dig shell scrapes when halted for several hours, putting up cam nets routinely, doing afternoon PD on camp instead of being cut loose at 1400, some even found that when they arrived late to a timing they were spoken to about it and then had it reflect on a feedback note after multiple infractions. So yeah they were obviously treated horribly.

LOLWUT?

 

[Jarnhamar]

doing afternoon PD on camp instead of being cut loose at 1400, some even found that when they arrived late to a timing they were spoken to about it and then had it reflect on a feedback note after multiple infractions.

No wonder they are coming back so angry at the world.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yeah i had to go to bat for one of our OPDCs who's troops came back screaming about their mistreatment. Their abuse was pretty severe: having to dig shell scrapes when halted for several hours, putting up cam nets routinely, doing afternoon PD on camp instead of being cut loose at 1400, some even found that when they arrived late to a timing they were spoken to about it and then had it reflect on a feedback note after multiple infractions. So yeah they were obviously treated horribly.

Cam nets and shellscrapes were the norm for every exercise I was on. As a Gun Commander I always made my guys dig them. Having talked with WWII vets, the value of having a hole to dive into was not underrated.

 

[daftandbarmy]

OP Happy New Year...

https://twitter.com/x/status/2006368027651014939