CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia

[Humphrey Bogart]

Graphic on twitter,
https://twitter.com/cezarysta/status/838399312136704001

by:

Mark
Ottawa

What a cluster

It's an Armoured Vehicle Dog and Pony!

I love how the Poles have sent T72s and left their LEOs at home.  I can picture a Polish Officer saying the following:  "Charity begins at home"  ;D

 

[The Bread Guy]

Then again, it would be just as fast to buy them direct off the shelf from the factory..... [

Drop-shipping tanks - LOVE it!

What a cluster

It's an Armoured Vehicle Dog and Pony!

Any former "CF in Germany" hands out there -- was there this broad a mix in the old Fulda-Gap-watching days?

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

What a cluster

It's an Armoured Vehicle Dog and Pony!

I love how the Poles have sent T72s and left their LEOs at home.  I can picture a Polish Officer saying the following:  "Charity begins at home"  ;D

Its a multinational force - its going to have a mix of equipment.

As for your comment on the Poles leaving Leos "at home", I suggest that you have a look at a map of Europe to place your comment in a meaningful context. 

 

[George Wallace]

Its a multinational force - its going to have a mix of equipment.

As for your comment on the Poles leaving Leos "at home", I suggest that you have a look at a map of Europe to place your comment in a meaningful context.

It does add to the Logistics Nightmare.  Common Ammo and Spare Parts would be a major concern, would it not?

 

[George Wallace]

...... -- was there this broad a mix in the old Fulda-Gap-watching days?

Actually, not so much.

Even the Germanys had American equipment, along with their Leopards (which several other nations shared commonality with, including us.) and their Marders.  The M-113 family of vehicles were widely used among all the nations.  Common Ammo calibres were shared among the various nations, as well as many of the weapons systems. 

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Its a multinational force - its going to have a mix of equipment.

I'm sure it looks great on someone's political briefing note.  I wouldn't want to be running C/S 8 for this one.  It's doctrinally unsound.

You've got a Brigade sized force with, 5 different MBTs, 8 different variants of APCs/IFVs, 4 different recce variants.

As for your comment on the Poles leaving Leos "at home", I suggest that you have a look at a map of Europe to place your comment in a meaningful context.

It was a joke, chill  8)

If I was Poland, I wouldn't be sending LEOs to Latvia either, keep them at home where they will actually be of use.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I would prefer we did a long term lease of some of the Paladins that the US has parked in storage. I would not want to be in a towed artillery unit facing off the Russians. As for tanks, not sure how many spare Leopards are left, but Canada could lease/buy 20 or so upgraded ones that stay in Europe and units are rotated through them. As ADA, buy into a existing Manpads that are in use and in production and have training troop in Canada and a active one in Lativa. Eventually work towards a larger vehicle based system as well. Also a tracked mounted 120mm mortar battery would good.

 

[MilEME09]

I would prefer we did a long term lease of some of the Paladins that the US has parked in storage. I would not want to be in a towed artillery unit facing off the Russians. As for tanks, not sure how many spare Leopards are left, but Canada could lease/buy 20 or so upgraded ones that stay in Europe and units are rotated through them. As ADA, buy into a existing Manpads that are in use and in production and have training troop in Canada and a active one in Lativa. Eventually work towards a larger vehicle based system as well. Also a tracked mounted 120mm mortar battery would good.

We only have some 40 odd Leo 2's so not many to go around, which is why we still have some 1's in service. If you are going to buy an existing manpad system why not the polish Grom? it's proven effective against the russians.

 

[dapaterson]

We purchased 100 Leo 2s. A number have been modified to AEVs and ARVs, but well over 40 remain; your source is wrong.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

We have roughly 80 gun tanks in three variants.

Sustainment for a multi-national force is always challenging, as is every other operational function. Ammunition, parts and technician qualifications pose problems for nation-specific equipment. The good news is that these are known factors that can be accounted for. I served in a NATO multi-national brigade in an operational environment with six major contingents, all with their own vehicles and weapons systems not to mention languages and communications gear. I recently served in a multi-national division with an amazing mixture of equipment and nationalities. It can work.

Churchill is quoted as saying "There is only thing worse than fighting with allies, and that is fighting without them."

 

[jeffb]

I would prefer we did a long term lease of some of the Paladins that the US has parked in storage. I would not want to be in a towed artillery unit facing off the Russians. As for tanks, not sure how many spare Leopards are left, but Canada could lease/buy 20 or so upgraded ones that stay in Europe and units are rotated through them. As ADA, buy into a existing Manpads that are in use and in production and have training troop in Canada and a active one in Lativa. Eventually work towards a larger vehicle based system as well. Also a tracked mounted 120mm mortar battery would good.

Or even some PzH2000's from our German friends. I'm sure they'd have a Bty worth of guns we could pick up fairly cheaply. The only people in the close support Regiments that served on the M109s are pretty few and far between and are mostly very senior. We'd almost be standing up the SPG capability from scratch so going Paladin versus some other system is probably a wash from a training perspective. At least the PzHs are already on the continent.

As for ADA, I'm a believer that we should try and focus to a niche capability such as counter UAV. Paired with the RADARs that we have now, a shooter that is optimized for engaging SUAVs and smaller would be a good fit and a real value added within an IADS.

 

[George Wallace]

Or even some PzH2000's from our German friends. I'm sure they'd have a Bty worth of guns we could pick up fairly cheaply. The only people in the close support Regiments that served on the M109s are pretty few and far between and are mostly very senior. We'd almost be standing up the SPG capability from scratch so going Paladin versus some other system is probably a wash from a training perspective. At least the PzHs are already on the continent.

As for ADA, I'm a believer that we should try and focus to a niche capability such as counter UAV. Paired with the RADARs that we have now, a shooter that is optimized for engaging SUAVs and smaller would be a good fit and a real value added within an IADS.

:SOF:

Ummm?  In the SPG sense, we would still have some experience on the Paladin, whereas the PzH 2000 would be a completely new SPG to learn on.  (Not that I don't think that we would be well served having PzH 2000's, and maintained the SPG capabilities.)

 

[MilEME09]

We purchased 100 Leo 2s. A number have been modified to AEVs and ARVs, but well over 40 remain; your source is wrong.

112 to be exact, 12 of which converted to ARV's, another 18 into AEV's, leaving 82 actual tanks, my sources might be wrong and I hope they are but an estimated 42 are actually in circulation for training, leaving 40 tanks, our 20 A6MCAN's and our A4MCAN's free for operations.

 

[Halifax Tar]

112 to be exact, 12 of which converted to ARV's, another 18 into AEV's, leaving 82 actual tanks, my sources might be wrong and I hope they are but an estimated 42 are actually in circulation for training, leaving 40 tanks, our 20 A6MCAN's and our A4MCAN's free for operations.

Survival time of 40 Leos against the Russian hoards ?

 

[George Wallace]

Survival time of 40 Leos against the Russian hoards ?

Well..... [  ...For us Cold War Warriors in Recce Sqn, it was 7 seconds on crossing the Start Line. 

If you survived that first 7 seconds, you may have had a chance.  :warstory:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

:SOF:

Ummm?  In the SPG sense, we would still have some experience on the Paladin, whereas the PzH 2000 would be a completely new SPG to learn on.  (Not that I don't think that we would be well served having PzH 2000's, and maintained the SPG capabilities.)

The PzH 2000 appears to have some issues, lots of moving bits that need TLC. The Paladin is basically a M109 with upgraded/new drivetrain from the Bradley. One website says it is in low rate production, not sure if that means completely new vehicles or production of rebuilds?

M109A7 (2013)

Due to the cancellation of new programs like the Crusader and Non-Line-of-Sight Cannon, the former M109A6 Paladin Integrated Management (PIM) was reactivated and extended to a full-blown modernization. Commonality of components with the Bradley IFV such as the engine, transmission, and tracks was part of this upgrade for costs-savings in production and maintenance personnel. The on-board power systems are completely overhauled with a much faster electric drive system for the turret traverse, better automatic rammer (1 rpm, max 4 rpm) and better accuracy overall.

There is also an additional power for future upgrades with a 600-volt on-board system. It is also 35 tonnes (4,5 tonne heavier) but the engine improvements meant it can travel 38 mph (61 km/h) and is more maneuverable, even than a Bradley. By 2013 after testing of prototypes, production was approved with a procurement of 580 M109A7 and M992A3 ammunition support vehicles. The FY 2014 budget called for $340.8 million ($14.4 million per vehicle) The test phase is not yet even closed. The full-rate production decision is therefore planned for February 2017. BAE started a low-rate delivery April 2015.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Well..... [  ...For us Cold War Warriors in Recce Sqn, it was 7 seconds on crossing the Start Line. 

If you survived that first 7 seconds, you may have had a chance.  :warstory:

That sounds like WW1 flying ace odds ... 

 

[daftandbarmy]

That sounds like WW1 flying ace odds ... 

Or 'Valley of Tears' odds....

The 7th Brigade, including reinforcements, totaled some twenty tanks. It began to pursue the Syrians but stopped at the anti-tank ditch. About 260 tanks were lying in the valley.[47] The Syrians lost over 500 tanks and APCs and the Israelis lost 60 to 80 armored vehicles. One brigade from the 7th Division was taken out of action for three days and then reorganized as a battalion.[50] Eitan told the 7th Brigade over the radio: "You have saved the people of Israel". Ben Gal told Kahalani: "You are the true savior of the people of Israel".[51] In the afternoon, the brigade's tanks pulled back a few at a time for ammunition and fuel. Ben Gal told Kahalani that the brigade has been ordered to counterattack into Syria. Eitan asked him to attack the next day, so as not to allow the Syrians time to reorganize, but Ben Gal asked for a day to allow his men to rest and refill the ranks.[49] Kahalani was later awarded the Medal of Valor for his performance in the battle.[52]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_Tears

 

[MarkOttawa]

Brit-led force well ahead of Canadian-led EFP (not til June http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-latvia-deployment-1.3988719 )

NATO battalion battle group to start moving to Estonia

The personnel, arms and equipment of one of the battle groups of the multinational NATO battalion will be moving to Estonia over the next six weeks.

The battle group's personnel will be airlifted to Estonia via the Ämari air base, while their equipment will arrive by land, or by sea via the port of Paldiski.

“Estonia is ready to receive its allies,” Minister of Defence Margus Tsahkna (IRL) said in a press release. “As soon as May, the battle group of the allied battalion will take part in Spring Storm, a major exercise of the Estonian defense forces, within the composition of the 1st Infantry Brigade.”

Tsahkna visited the NATO battalion’s command element at the defense forces’ headquarters last week, where he received a detailed overview of the allies’ arrival from the chief of the contingent, Col. Giles Harris. The deployment of NATO battle groups to countries on the borders of the alliance’s territory would ensure peace and stability, the minister said.

“The deployment of international battle groups is part of the alliance’s wider effort to strengthen deterrence and defense, and a vigorous testimony to the alliance’s strength and resolve,” Tsahkna said.

Leaders of NATO countries decided at the Warsaw summit last July to deploy NATO troops to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland in response to the changed security environment. The contingent to be stationed in Estonia will be led by the United Kingdom, with additional troops contributed by France and Denmark.

The UK announced it would send 800 personnel with Warrior infantry fighting vehicles and Challenger 2 tanks to Estonia. France will send five Leclerc tanks, 13 infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs), and 300 soldiers.
http://news.err.ee/260633/nato-battalion-battle-group-to-start-moving-to-estonia

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Fellow in Polish army on twitter,

@cezarysta follows you

Logistician on NATO's Eastern Flank / Logistyk na wschodniej flance NATO / Poland & Baltic States defence issues / “Nothing happens until something moves”
https://twitter.com/cezarysta

seems well-informed--wish our gov't would tell us details of Canadian deployment to Latvia:

@cezarysta

@Mark3Ds There is any [think he means no] delay for #CAN-led #eFP #battlegroup. Everything is planned and deployment dates are already on the table. No need to rush.
https://twitter.com/cezarysta/status/839227666066780161

Mark
Ottawa