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CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia

They were there because the then head of Army Training, Col (later, in HK, A/Brigadier) J.K. Lawson had declared -spring of 1941 - both units as being NOT ready to go to England and join a division.

The assertion was they were new, untrained recruits who did their basic training overseas, which is incorrect. The troops were already trained when they departed for Hong Kong, even if the brigade wasn't ready for combat.

Of course they did. But we recruited and had a basic unit training before going over seas. I mean it’s not like entire divisions were just kitted and send overseas and learn how to drill and shoot.
Well actually that did happen, with predictable results in Hong Kong.
 
The assertion was they were new, untrained recruits who did their basic training overseas, which is incorrect. The troops were already trained when they departed for Hong Kong, even if the brigade wasn't ready for combat.
According to the army of the time, they were still essentially recruits not ready for action.
 
According to the army of the time, they were still essentially recruits not ready for action.
Col Lawson had a "standard" which, it appears, he applied, consistently across the Army - the Royal Rifles and Winnipeg Grenadier were partially trained - NOT well enough to go to England and join a division but sufficiently for garrison duties outside ion Canada. My personal belief is that, in selecting them for Hong Kong, AHQ displayed a serious weak appreciation of the situation in Asia.
 
I believe, as above, they were Class C Inf Bn's. Cannot find a definition for that.
 
I believe, as above, they were Class C Inf Bn's. Cannot find a definition for that.

Both battalions were organized into a mini brigade designated as "C Force".

I don't know of any other classification system other than individual fitness for service where a Class A soldier was fit for any general duty and Class B restricted to lines of communication troops.

🍻
 
Aware it was C Force. Read somewhere that they ware classed as C Inf Bn. Could have been the author misconstruing.
 
Aware it was C Force. Read somewhere that they ware classed as C Inf Bn. Could have been the author misconstruing.

Such as this?

“C” Force is the name given to the group of Canadian soldiers in Hong Kong. The name’s origins are unclear: the “C” probably refers to Canada, but it could also refer to “C class,” the military category of the two regiments dispatched to the colony. In the Canadian army, “C-class” regiments are those that are insufficiently trained to be deployed in combat.

There is a brief passage in Official History of the Canadian Army in the Second World War, Vol 1 Six Years of War (pg 445/PDF pg 484) that discusses the selection of the two battalions for Hong Kong. The use (twice) of the terms "Class A" and "Class B" to refer to the fitness of formed units are the only times that those terms are used in the volume even though there is much discussion about the training and evaluation of the Canadian Army.

. . . The Committee confirmed the approval for the dispatch of the two battalions, noting that the actual units would be selected by the Minister of National Defence in consultation with the General Staff.

The selection received careful attention. The Director of Military Training was asked to prepare a list of infantry battalions in Canada in order of priority according to training, and sent it to the Director of Staff Duties on 24 September. The ten battalions which he listed under Class "A", i.e., those best trained, were with one exception units of the 4th Division, which at this time was still in Canada.* Seven other units were included in Class "B", these being either units of the newly-organized 6th Division or employed on coast defence. Finally, the D.M.T. listed nine battalions, which "due either to recent employment requiring a period of refresher training, or to insufficient training, are not recommended for operational consideration at present".

On 26 September the Director of Staff Duties (Colonel W. H. S. Macklin) made a submission to the Chief of the General Staff, based on these recommendations, providing for consideration lists of alternative selections from both Class "A" and Class "B". The G.O.C. 4th Division (Major General L. F. Page) strongly reprobated the suggestion that his formation should be robbed of two battalions for the Hong Kong task; and after considering the whole situation the C.G.S. decided that the best course was to select two battalions, The Royal Rifles of Canada and The Winnipeg Grenadiers, which had been included by the Director of Military Training among those not recommended for operational consideration. Both had recently returned from garrison duties in areas adjacent to Canada (the Royal Rifles from Newfoundland, the Winnipeg Grenadiers from Jamaica), and the D.M.T. had presumably considered that they were among those in need of "refresher training".

On 30 September the C.G.S. made his formal recommendation to the Minister. He wrote: "As these units are going to a distant and important garrison where they will be detached from other Canadian forces, a primary consideration is that they should be efficient, well-trained battalions capable of upholding the credit of the Dominion in any circumstances." It would be unsound, he said, to "disrupt" the 4th Division, and it seemed to him best to select units from among those on coast defence duty or from the 6th Division. In recommending specifically the Royal Rifles and the Winnipeg Grenadiers, General Crerar wrote:
10. As you know, these units returned not long ago from duty in Newfoundland and Jamaica respectively. The duties which they there carried out were not in many respects unlike the task which awaits the units to be sent to Hong Kong. The experience they have had will therefore be of no small value to them in their new role. Both are units of proven efficiency.​
11. In my opinion, the balance of argument favours the selection of these two battalions. I would be very reluctant to allot them indefinitely to a home defence role as the effect on their morale, following a period of "semi-overseas" responsibilities would be bound to be adverse. The selection represents both Eastern and Western Canada. In the case of the Royal Rifles, there is also the fact that this battalion, while nominally English-speaking is actually drawn from a region overwhelmingly French-speaking in character and contains an important proportion of Canadians of French descent.​

Nor are those classifications used to describe the fitness (or unfitness as the case may be) in two other contemporary reports that discuss the Canadian Army in Hong Kong.

Not in REPORT NO. 163 HISTORICAL SECTION CANADIAN MILITARY HEADQUARTERS, Canadian Participation in the Defence of Hong Kong December. 1941

Nor in the report of the commission of inquiry by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada held in 1942 (it wouldn't be Canada unless we held an inquiry to try to assign blame).
Report on the Canadian Expeditionary Force to the Crown colony of Hong Kong by Sir Lyman P. Duff, commissioner

Chief Justice Duff's report has probably the best description of the selection, training and preparation of "C" Force.
 
As near as I can tell after a quick glance many years ago at the Royal Commission's findings. Basically it was all the fault of Japanese because if they hadn't invaded...
 
Blackadder1916, yes that was it. Was going to look that reference on line as I recently donated all my military hard covers.
 
German Bde to be Fomed in Lithuania

Some details about the German Bde in Lithuania. I believe this is intended to become a permanent Bde, home stationed in Lithuania to replace the current arrangement of a Bde based in Germany with a HQ cadre permanently forward on a rotation schedule.

The various articles talk about the Bde having three Bns. One Panzer, one Panzer Grenadier and then the German eFP BG. No specific mention of what Bde troops will be included but it seems the number of German personnel being discussed is IVO 4000.
 
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