Canada’s little-known spy agency comes out into the open

[Edward Campbell]

That China spies on other countries and steals technology is undeniable and, at least in my opinion, unremarkable because America, Britain, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Honduras and India and so on down to Zimbabwe do it too.

The Chinese are, perhaps, a bit more brazen.

I'm sorry but, despite the media attention, this isn't a story. Canada spies on friendly nations ... <yawn> ... so does Brazil, but their "best friends" may take a little better care about how they safeguard their secrets than do we (Remember Jeffrey Delisle?) and our "best friend" the USA's NSA. There is no need to comment, publicly or privately, on this. Everyone ~ the President of Brazil and a pack of journalists is pretending to be surprised and outraged (OK, I'll concede that some journalists are so bloody stupid that they actually are surprised) ~ but almost everyone understands that this is part of doing "business."

 

[Ostrozac]

I'm sorry but, despite the media attention, this isn't a story. Canada spies on friendly nations ... <yawn> ... so does Brazil, but their "best friends" may take a little better care about how they safeguard their secrets than do we (Remember Jeffrey Delisle?) and our "best friend" the USA's NSA. There is no need to comment, publicly or privately, on this. Everyone ~ the President of Brazil and a pack of journalists is pretending to be surprised and outraged (OK, I'll concede that some journalists are so bloody stupid that they actually are surprised) ~ but almost everyone understands that this is part of doing "business."

Some countries of technical means use SIGINT. Some countries, are of course, kind of broke, and use the third oldest profession, HUMINT. But all countries collect intelligence.

I have a book kicking around somewhere that details the massive intelligence failures of the Falklands War (on both sides) -- and one of the key conclusions of why the UK had little to no notice of the Argentinian invasion was that the main guy that was relied upon to collect intelligence on Argentina (the UK defence attache in Buenos Aires) was overwhelmed by demands from back home to spend all his time trying to do his best to find out what capabilities the Argentines were lacking, in order to promote the sale of UK defence material to the Argentinians, rather than worry about the threat they posed. Jobs back home were much more important.

(Totally off topic, but both the Royal Navy and Argentina employed made-in-England Type 42 destroyers during the war.)

Some countries have defence interests, some have industrial interests, but all of them have national interests. Of course Canada cares about Brazil, just as I am sure Brazil cares about Canada. Cares enough to ask questions.

 

[Journeyman]

(OK, I'll concede that some journalists are so bloody stupid that they actually are surprised)

    :cheers:    (sadly)

 

[MarkOttawa]

For all  those journalists, who for the last thirty years or so, keep referring to the "little known"  etc. CSE --just do some flipping research rather than repeating ignorant stock lines.  I.e. grow up and get professional,  Hah!
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/articles/macleans/canadas-spy-agency-from-the-inside
http://www.cse-cst.gc.ca/home-accueil/history-histoire/index-eng.html
http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/researchpublications/bp343-e.htm
http://circ.jmellon.com/docs/html/communications_security_establishment_unofficial_webpage_020623.html
http://www.jproc.ca/crypto/rockex.html  [Canadian stuff towards end]

Lazy bleeding beggars, those who commit journalism in  Canada.  Too lazy and uninformed even to Google with intelligent intent.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[The Bread Guy]

I'm sorry but, despite the media attention, this isn't a story.

It may be a story, but it sounds like it's not NEWS (root word:  "new").

Lazy bleeding beggars, those who commit journalism in  Canada.  Too lazy and uninformed even to Google with intelligent intent.

You've gotta come out of your shell and tell us what you mean, man  ;D

 

[Nemo888]

If Brazilians were eavesdropping on MNR here in Ottawa I would want the individuals responsible in jail. 75% of the world's mines are headquartered in Canada. This looks like industrial espionage for the economic gain of those transnational corporations.

We look rather like third world corporate criminals. Perhaps that is our new international image? If that is not a story I am very sad for what my country has become. "Everybody does it is," not an excuse I accept from my 8 year old let alone my elected officials. Can everybody cheat on thier taxes now?

 

[Monsoon]

If Brazilians were eavesdropping on MNR here in Ottawa I would want the individuals responsible in jail. 75% of the world's mines are headquartered in Canada. This looks like industrial espionage for the economic gain of those transnational corporations.

We look rather like third world corporate criminals. Perhaps that is our new international image? If that is not a story I am very sad for what my country has become. "Everybody does it is," not an excuse I accept from my 8 year old let alone my elected officials. Can everybody cheat on thier taxes now?

Sounds like you've carefully analyzed the original news report (available only in Portuguese) and all of it's source documentation (not available to the public) and are in a position to draw conclusions from it.

 

[Journeyman]

Sounds like you've ......

It's a recurring theme; and whatever the topic, it's written in the most shocked/distraught/offended terms possible.
    :boring:

Once again, I thank the site owner for the <ignore> function.  :nod:

 

[Retired AF Guy]

A link to the actual slides that everyone is talking about, courtesy of the original wikileaks.

http://cryptome.org/2013/10/cse-br/cse-br.htm

 

[Monsoon]

A link to the actual slides that everyone is talking about, courtesy of the original wikileaks.

http://cryptome.org/2013/10/cse-br/cse-br.htm

So... "spying on the Brazilian Ministry of Mines" was a theoretical example chosen to discuss the features of some programme? Weak.

 

[George Wallace]

A link to the actual slides that everyone is talking about, courtesy of the original wikileaks.

http://cryptome.org/2013/10/cse-br/cse-br.htm

To tell you the truth, those slides look more like an exercise designed to train analysts.  If one delved into the real-life activities of Governments and their Defence and Security agencies, they would find that it is common practice to exercise their people on a multitude of scenarios and often think outside of the box.  This really is not news.  It is political posturing by Brazil.  Let's get real.  Brazil is not exempt from the spy game.  No country is.

One thing that this does demonstrate, though, is the damage that people like Snowden and others at wikileaks do to our nation's security.  Their innocent thoughts are actually quite distructive.  In their innocence, they are creating more harm than good.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That's what I'm thinking.

Someone took what was supposed to be a theoretical exercise and extrapolated it into an actual operation.

I'm not cognizant of the inner workings of this org, but I'm pretty damn sure that if they were going to mount and materialize an actual op, it would consist of a little more that 3 ppt slides.

People, once again, including the CBC & Opposition, appear to be trying to make political hay out of nothing more than the smell of a dewy field of grass.

 

[The Bread Guy]

To tell you the truth, those slides look more like an exercise designed to train analysts. 

Someone took what was supposed to be a theoretical exercise and extrapolated it into an actual operation.

Or a post-mortem/best practice?  Hard to tell with only 3-4 slides ....

One thing that this does demonstrate, though, is the damage that people like Snowden and others at wikileaks do to our nation's security.  Their innocent thoughts are actually quite distructive.  In their innocence, they are creating more harm than good.

I'm not cognizant of the inner workings of this org, but I'm pretty damn sure that if they were going to mount and materialize an actual op, it would consist of a little more that 3 ppt slides.

Or, if the journalists really believe the viewer/reader can judge things on their own, if we don't see more than just snippets/bits/parts of documents they base their stories on.  Some are getting better, but it would be interesting to see what else is in the slide deck - or was THAT not shared because it didn't fit the journalist's storyline?

So far, the only public comment from a former CSIS type (not with CSEC) is "not bloody likely"....

“There’s no smoking gun here. It’s again more little snippets and snapshots from the Snowden revelations; they actually mislead more than they inform,” says Ray Boisvert, until last year a deputy director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

“I don’t believe it’s likely Brazil was targeted.”

(....)

“When I worked there, very closely with CSEC and I was a top-line operational leader, we were all too busy chasing bad guys who want to kill people,” the former CSIS official said.

“At the end of the day CSIS and CSEC have a mandate to go after foreign powers if those are acting in a way that’s inimical to our interests, so the poster child for that would be Iran. Everything from nuclear proliferation to state-sponsored terror,” he said.

“Brazil seems highly unlikely to me,” Mr. Boisvert said ....

It is political posturing by Brazil.  Let's get real.  Brazil is not exempt from the spy game.  No country is.

True on both counts, especially given some of Brazil's positions/statements in the past on other issues.

Also, I'd like to think that if the slides were a training aid, someone official would have said, "CSE is too busy hunting down real enemies to do the mining industry's homework for them," not that this was a "concern".

 

[Edward Campbell]

...
Also, I'd like to think that if the slides were a training aid, someone official would have said, ...

The best thing would be that no one official says anything, at all, publicly. Privately we can make nice soothing sounds towards the Brazilians ~ reminding them, as we do, that they were trying to steal aerospace secrets from us just a few years ago.

Another "best" thing  would be for people to get security conscious again. That was a TS brief that might have been usefully circulated in numbered paper copies, but should never have been 'filed,' on a US system. I recognize that no one uses vu-graph (hard copy) presentations any more, but the laptop on which the PowerPoint presentation was housed should have been a Canadian TS repository and should have been treated as such. We don't, or at least we shouldn't dump our paper files into other nation's registries - electronic files should not be different just because they are so easy to share.

 

[ModlrMike]

...electronic files should not be different just because they are so easy to share.

I have to disagree. They should be different precisely because they are easy to share. They require a greater sense of security than paper files if for no other reasons than their ephemeral nature and the ease by which they are reproduced and difficult to track.

 

[dapaterson]

Next you're going to say our computers shouldn't be festooned with USB ports to let folks copy everything and walk away, or that DVD drives should be read-only, not read write.

Perhaps the real solution lies in only classifying what is absoultely critical and protecting it as such, instead of lazily slapping "SECRET" on documents that should be more properly labelled "EVIDENCE OF STUPIDITY - IT'S GONNA SUCK WHEN THIS HITS THE GLOBE AND MAIL".

 

[Edward Campbell]

Next you're going to say our computers shouldn't be festooned with USB ports to let folks copy everything and walk away, or that DVD drives should be read-only, not read write.

Perhaps the real solution lies in only classifying what is absoultely critical and protecting it as such, instead of lazily slapping "SECRET" on documents that should be more properly labelled "EVIDENCE OF STUPIDITY - IT'S GONNA SUCK WHEN THIS HITS THE GLOBE AND MAIL".

Bingo! Give that man the prize; he got the right answer!

The presentation, at least the bits published, is (was) legitimately very highly classified. But one reason (just one of many) we get careless is that too much dross is classified and everyone loses interest in protecting the real SECRETs (and above) because of that.

Using security to prevent (often political, including uniformed political) embarrassment is an abuse of the system and those who do it are endangering the security of their country and are, therefore, unacceptably bad officers and officials.

 

[The Bread Guy]

In other CSEC news ....

The Honourable Rob Nicholson, P.C., Q.C., M.P. for Niagara Falls, Minister of National Defence, today announced the appointment of the Honourable Jean-Pierre Plouffe, as the new Commissioner of the Communications Security Establishment.

"I am pleased to announce Jean-Pierre Plouffe’s appointment as Commissioner of the Communications Security Establishment," said Minister Nicholson. "Mr. Plouffe brings extensive legal knowledge to the position, including experience in the Military Justice system.”

A graduate of the University of Ottawa, Mr. Plouffe was appointed to the Superior Court of Quebec in 1990, and was appointed as a Judge in the Court Martial Appeal Court of Canada in March of 2013.

Mr. Plouffe has had a long and distinguished career, beginning in the office of the Judge Advocate General, where he retired as a Lieutenant-Colonel, then as a defense lawyer for Court Martials while with the private practice of Seguin, Oulette, Plouffe and Associates in Gatineau, QC, as well as for Legal Aid in Hull, Quebec. He was appointed a Military Judge in 1980 as a Reserve officer, and then as a Judge in the Court of Quebec in 1982 ....

 

[Edward Campbell]

Remember, please that the Commissioner is the person who reviews the legality of CSEC's operations; see here.

The person who runs CSEC is the Chief; see here.

 

[Nemo888]

Canadian spies met with energy firms, documents reveal

Government agency that allegedly spied on Brazil had secret meetings with energy companies


    Martin Lukacs and Tim Groves
    theguardian.com, Wednesday 9 October 2013 12.08 BST

The Canadian government agency that allegedly hacked into the Brazilian mining and energy ministry has participated in secret meetings in Ottawa where Canadian security agencies briefed energy corporations, it has emerged.

Claims of spying on the ministry by Communications Security Establishment Canada (CSEC) come amid the Canadian government's increasingly aggressive promotion of resource corporations at home and abroad, including unprecedented surveillance and intelligence sharing with companies.

According to freedom of information documents obtained by the Guardian, the meetings – conducted twice a year since 2005 – involved federal ministries, spy and police agencies, and representatives from scores of companies who obtained high-level security clearance.

Meetings were officially billed to discuss "threats" to energy infrastructure but also covered "challenges to energy projects from environmental groups", "cyber security initiatives" and "economic and corporate espionage".

The documents – heavily redacted agendas – do not indicate that any international espionage was shared by CSEC officials, but the meetings were an opportunity for government agencies and companies to develop "ongoing trusting relations" that would help them exchange information "off the record", wrote an official from the Natural Resources ministry in 2010.

At the most recent meeting in May 2013, which focused on "security of energy resources development", meals were sponsored by Enbridge, a Canadian oil company trying to win approval for controversial tar sands pipelines.

Since coming to power, Conservative prime minister, Stephen Harper, has used his government apparatus to serve a natural resources development agenda, while creating sweeping domestic surveillance programs that have kept close tabs on indigenous and environmental opposition and shared intelligence with companies.

Harper has transformed Canada's foreign policy to offer full diplomatic backing to foreign mining and oil projects, tying aid pledges to their advancement and jointly funding ventures with companies throughout Africa, South America and Asia.

Keith Stewart, an energy policy analyst with Greenpeace Canada, said: "There seems to be no limit to what the Harper government will do to help their friends in the oil and mining industries. They've muzzled scientists, gutted environmental laws, reneged on our international climate commitments, labelled environmental critics as criminals and traitors, and have now been caught engaging in economic espionage in a friendly country. Canadians, and our allies, have a right to ask who exactly is receiving the gathered intelligence and whose interests are being served."

Observers have suggested that Canadian spying on Brazil is related to the country's auctioning of massive offshore oil finds, potential competition to Canada's tar sands, and Canada's desire to gain competitive advantage for more than 40 Canadian companies involved in Brazil's mining sector.

"There is very substantial evidence that the spying Canada was doing for economic reasons aimed at Brazil is far from an aberration," Guardian columnist Glenn Greenwald told Canadian media on Tuesday. Greenwald hinted that he will be publishing further documents on CSEC.

"We've already seen how Canadian embassies around the world essentially act as agents for Canadian companies – even when they're implicated in serious human rights abuses," said Jamie Kneen of MiningWatch Canada, an NGO watchdog. "We just had no idea how far they were willing to go."