Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[daftandbarmy]

And anytime you merge two similar but different organizations together with different cultures, they tend to blow apart in short order.

Or at least that has been my experience…

The RCN and CCG should get along just great, right?

 

[Underway]

And anytime you merge two similar but different organizations together with different cultures, they tend to blow apart in short order.

Or at least that has been my experience…

The organizations are not being merged. Both are going to operate independent of each other, just talk more often about different things.

CCG is getting some expanded roles sure. I'm confident they will be well within the wheelhouse of what the CCG can do and wants to do. They are part of the process in defining the new roles. This is government driven not RCN driven, so the RCN has no say in how this pans out, though I'm sure they can make recommendations and assist CCG in their transition if necessary.

I would hope that undersea infrastructure monitoring ends up being a task for the CCG. That's a good role for them.

 

[captloadie]

The organizations are not being merged. Both are going to operate independent of each other, just talk more often about different things.

CCG is getting some expanded roles sure. I'm confident they will be well within the wheelhouse of what the CCG can do and wants to do. They are part of the process in defining the new roles. This is government driven not RCN driven, so the RCN has no say in how this pans out, though I'm sure they can make recommendations and assist CCG in their transition if necessary.

I would hope that undersea infrastructure monitoring ends up being a task for the CCG. That's a good role for them.

Its funny how everyone defaults to the CCG and the RCN being the two organizations most closely linked, and subject to the largest headbutting.

I foresee the bigger issues, and potentially greater opportunities to cooperate, being between the RCAF, CJOC, CANSOF, and CFINTCOM.
The CCG is already a big player in several domestic operations, and in a world where the CAF is being directed to be a more lethal fighting force, perhaps the SAR mandate would be better nested under the CCG. White and RED is just as nice as bright yellow.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Its funny how everyone defaults to the CCG and the RCN being the two organizations most closely linked, and subject to the largest headbutting.

I foresee the bigger issues, and potentially greater opportunities to cooperate, being between the RCAF, CJOC, CANSOF, and CFINTCOM.
The CCG is already a big player in several domestic operations, and in a world where the CAF is being directed to be a more lethal fighting force, perhaps the SAR mandate would be better nested under the CCG. White and RED is just as nice as bright yellow.

It does open up interesting possibilities, doesn’t it?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Its funny how everyone defaults to the CCG and the RCN being the two organizations most closely linked, and subject to the largest headbutting.

I foresee the bigger issues, and potentially greater opportunities to cooperate, being between the RCAF, CJOC, CANSOF, and CFINTCOM.
The CCG is already a big player in several domestic operations, and in a world where the CAF is being directed to be a more lethal fighting force, perhaps the SAR mandate would be better nested under the CCG. White and RED is just as nice as bright yellow.

And heavily armed icebreakers would be nice too

 

[brihard]

Its funny how everyone defaults to the CCG and the RCN being the two organizations most closely linked, and subject to the largest headbutting.

I foresee the bigger issues, and potentially greater opportunities to cooperate, being between the RCAF, CJOC, CANSOF, and CFINTCOM.
The CCG is already a big player in several domestic operations, and in a world where the CAF is being directed to be a more lethal fighting force, perhaps the SAR mandate would be better nested under the CCG. White and RED is just as nice as bright yellow.

I’ll throw another one out there- CCG and the Rangers.

 

[dapaterson]

I’ll throw another one out there- CCG and the Rangers.

Most important, opening CANEX locations to serve the CCG.

 

[Underway]

Its funny how everyone defaults to the CCG and the RCN being the two organizations most closely linked, and subject to the largest headbutting.

I foresee the bigger issues, and potentially greater opportunities to cooperate, being between the RCAF, CJOC, CANSOF, and CFINTCOM.
The CCG is already a big player in several domestic operations, and in a world where the CAF is being directed to be a more lethal fighting force, perhaps the SAR mandate would be better nested under the CCG. White and RED is just as nice as bright yellow.

You're not wrong. I think that the initial steps are in concert with the RCN as we work directly with them on a lot of things, including SAR. But RCAF and SAR relationships/responsibilities are a very interesting string to pull at. RCAF, RCN, RCMP and CCG already sit at the same table when dealing with SAR, and coordinate/assign assets as necessary (at least on the coasts, I'm unsure of how it works for land based SAR).

 

[KevinB]

Well, once it was merged, the union would exist anymore, or it would be an illegal organization.

Except that you can’t just change employment conditions on a whim like that.

Moving them under DND makes a lot of sense, @captloadie gives a better break down above.

But into the CAF it becomes a lot different and rife with pitfalls that I don’t see any government wanting to take on.

 

[Kirkhill]

And heavily armed icebreakers would be nice too

How heavily armed are the Army's Dozers and Wreckers?

Don't they rely on others to secure their working environment?

 

[Kirkhill]

I’ll throw another one out there- CCG and the Rangers.

The Rangers already wear Coast Guard colours.

 

[FJAG]

Except that you can’t just change employment conditions on a whim like that.

Moving them under DND makes a lot of sense, @captloadie gives a better break down above.

But into the CAF it becomes a lot different and rife with pitfalls that I don’t see any government wanting to take on.

That's probably all too true.

But I do see opportunities to come closer together and yes, it needs an adjustment of the CCG's (and IMHO) the RCMP's statements of work/contracts/ training etc.

The RCMP already does some basic military training when you consider first aid, small arms, tactics and even drill. The first thing that I see about the French Gendarmerie and the Italian Carabinieri is that they can march like military units and carry arms. When I see the US CG I see that their boats/ships carry armaments appropriate to their security duties. They are even statutorily part of the "armed" services.

It's not like there aren't models of what the CGG and RCMP could be transformed into with a little effort. And yes. I'm all for the RCMP becoming our military police and transforming our MPs into a security force, a POW handling agency and traffic control. Leave "policing" to the RCMP.

Sure there are obstacles; they can be overcome. All that's missing is a government with a will to move the goal posts.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That's probably all too true.

But I do see opportunities to come closer together and yes, it needs an adjustment of the CCG's (and IMHO) the RCMP's statements of work/contracts/ training etc.

The RCMP already does some basic military training when you consider first aid, small arms, tactics and even drill. The first thing that I see about the French Gendarmerie and the Italian Carabinieri is that they can march like military units and carry arms. When I see the US CG I see that their boats/ships carry armaments appropriate to their security duties. They are even statutorily part of the "armed" services.

It's not like there aren't models of what the CGG and RCMP could be transformed into with a little effort. And yes. I'm all for the RCMP becoming our military police and transforming our MPs into a security force, a POW handling agency and traffic control. Leave "policing" to the RCMP.

Sure there are obstacles; they can be overcome. All that's missing is a government with a will to move the goal posts.

As I recall, the poor old CCG suffered under Phoenix.

Maybe the fact that they'll get paid properly, and on time, now will be a big incentive

 

[dapaterson]

As I recall, the poor old CCG suffered under Phoenix.

Maybe the fact that they'll get paid properly, and on time, now will be a big incentive

Still paid under Phoenix.

CAF pay is delivered by two past obsolete systems held together mostly by the fact that the Chaplain General HQ is close by and praying for them to deliver pay twice a month.

 

[Eaglelord17]

That's probably all too true.

But I do see opportunities to come closer together and yes, it needs an adjustment of the CCG's (and IMHO) the RCMP's statements of work/contracts/ training etc.

The RCMP already does some basic military training when you consider first aid, small arms, tactics and even drill. The first thing that I see about the French Gendarmerie and the Italian Carabinieri is that they can march like military units and carry arms. When I see the US CG I see that their boats/ships carry armaments appropriate to their security duties. They are even statutorily part of the "armed" services.

It's not like there aren't models of what the CGG and RCMP could be transformed into with a little effort. And yes. I'm all for the RCMP becoming our military police and transforming our MPs into a security force, a POW handling agency and traffic control. Leave "policing" to the RCMP.

Sure there are obstacles; they can be overcome. All that's missing is a government with a will to move the goal posts.

A big obstacle with the RCMP becoming our MPs is the fact they are not part of or subject to the Code of Service discipline. They are also civilians which means they cannot be forced to go to say a active warzone if they do not wish to (or alternatively can just quit on you if they decide they want to leave said warzone).

It is much easier I think to make the MPs what the CAF needs them to be than it is to make the RCMP what the CAF needs.

It’s how you run into issues like this and not being able to charge them for it.

Quebec police officers retire to escape hearings into alleged sexual misconduct in Haiti

One allegedly had consensual sex with local women – in violation of the rules of the Canadian mission. The other allegedly visited a bar and attempted to hire a pro…

nationalpost.com

 

[FJAG]

A big obstacle with the RCMP becoming our MPs is the fact they are not part of or subject to the Code of Service discipline. They are also civilians which means they cannot be forced to go to say a active warzone if they do not wish to (or alternatively can just quit on you if they decide they want to leave said warzone).

That is correct. But note that both the Gendarmerie and Carabinieri are part of the armed forces. France has two coast guards - a policing branch which is part of the Gendarmerie and a customs and excise branch which is civilian and part of French Customs. The Italian Corpo delle Capitanerie di porto - Guardia costiera is part of the navy. And, as I mentioned above the US CG is an armed service and is subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

It is much easier I think to make the MPs what the CAF needs them to be than it is to make the RCMP what the CAF needs.

JFK: "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard." As I said; this is a question of political will which I do not think that Canada has. So it's a mute point.

As far as easier is concerned I tend to think that breaking policing functions into two broad fields: those basically involved in law enforcement and those providing non-law enforcement security duties is easier in the long run.

The RCMP already do everything from neighbourhood detachment policing to high level national security. Law enforcement is part and parcel to their basic training DNA. Adding military law enforcement is easy for them. We might want to clean up the code of service discipline to facilitate that by keeping low-level disciplinary processes entirely within the non-judicial chain of command while making everything else part and parcel to the CCC including changing the judiciary to the Federal court Trial Division (They already run the Court Martial Appeal Court). It would simplify our military justice system.

Changing the MPs to a general security force also simplifies their training and duties significantly. It means we can use reservist MP's more efficiently and ramp up the production of them if and when needed.

Laws are easy to write and amend. It's managing their effects which can lead to difficulties. I see these types of changes to create simpler, more effective, systems for the future. What would be hard would be the transition phase where folks who are deeply invested in their current status quo would be resistant-some highly resistant. Do you grandfather the current members of the RCMP and CCG? Do you give them a golden parachute retirement option? All options to consider. Progress shouldn't be held up for their comfort level.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

A big obstacle with the RCMP becoming our MPs is the fact they are not part of or subject to the Code of Service discipline. They are also civilians which means they cannot be forced to go to say a active warzone if they do not wish to (or alternatively can just quit on you if they decide they want to leave said warzone).

It is much easier I think to make the MPs what the CAF needs them to be than it is to make the RCMP what the CAF needs.

It’s how you run into issues like this and not being able to charge them for it.

Quebec police officers retire to escape hearings into alleged sexual misconduct in Haiti

One allegedly had consensual sex with local women – in violation of the rules of the Canadian mission. The other allegedly visited a bar and attempted to hire a pro…

nationalpost.com

QR&O 101.21 is actually pretty broad on who is subject to the Code of Service Discipline.

Overseas? Everyone part of the Canadian Contingent is.

 

[FJAG]

QR&O 101.21 is actually pretty broad on who is subject to the Code of Service Discipline.

Overseas? Everyone part of the Canadian Contingent is.

The power for the GiC, MND and Treasury Board to make regulations is governed by s 12 of the NDA.

• 12 (1) The Governor in Council may make regulations for the organization, training, discipline, efficiency, administration and good government of the Canadian Forces and generally for carrying the purposes and provisions of this Act into effect.

It's actually an interesting one. It is, but it's a mere regulation (albeit a GiC one - which raises another question, can a CDS order the renumbering of a GiC created regulation???). It's subject to any contradictory legislation that might exist out there. That's particulalry problematic in a "criminal" trial where any and every faint hope defence is raised. My guess is that it might crumble some day if seriously challenged. DND doesn't see many of these.

One has to ask whether or not subjecting civilians to the CSD falls within the powers granted these days.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The NDA seems to grant the GiC a great deal of leeway in making someone subject to the CSD.

I am sure a Court Martial that involved a civilian would end up at the SCC over jurisdiction issues. It would be interesting to see that ruling…

 

[dapaterson]

Individuals subject to the CSD are spelled out within the NDA; regulations in that space would be constrained by the legislation. NDA 60 does not provide for much regulatory flexibility.