It's a long time ago but I seem to recall my Dad being involved in Courts Martial involving dependent civilians in Lahr. Those wouldn't have involved the CSD but there must have been some delegation of civilian legal processes to the military justice system under those circumstances. FJAG would know better and like I said, long time ago (early 70s) and there has been a whole lot of change to both systems since then.
Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC
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All members of the CAF outside Canada have been placed on active service, per GiC regulations. This means persons accompanying them, including family members, are subject to the CSD per NDA 60(1)(f). That framework has been in place since the 1990s, if not earlier.
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There were quite a few of those back in the day. They would be governed under s 60(1)(f) accompanying forces. Note that under the NATO SOFA, states carve ut being subject to host nation laws in exchange for taking jurisdiction over their folks. Dependents are covered under provisions of the NATO SOFA. This is in part why s 132 exists. It incorporates as a service offence the contravention a foreign law in that foreign country.
It was in place going back at least to the 70s AFAIK.
Note as well that all ResF members are on active service when out of the country under the NATO active service OiC.
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I generally include the Res F when discussing the CAFNote as well that all ResF members are on active service when out of the country under the NATO active service OiC.
An oft forgotten thing is that members of the Supp Res are CAF members, and therefore subject to the CSD under some circumstances. Or a class A Reservist who is also a DND public servant would be arguably subject to the CSD when at their PS job.
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While technically true, I think the DMP would have to look carefully at the context of the alleged offence before contemplating supporting charges under the NDA for a reservist whose day job took them onto DND property, lest it open up an avenue for an appeal.I generally include the Res F when discussing the CAF
An oft forgotten thing is that members of the Supp Res are CAF members, and therefore subject to the CSD under some circumstances. Or a class A Reservist who is also a DND public servant would be arguably subject to the CSD when at their PS job.
A military judge’s first question at the proceedings would likely be why this case was not in front of a civilian judge. The Prosecutor had better have a pretty good answer ready.
I can conceive of a few situations where a reservist maybe attempted to “cross the streams” between their civilian employment and their status as a reservist that would certainly indicate maybe a service offence had occurred.
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Unfortunately the CAF doesn't.I generally include the Res F when discussing the CAF
HavokFour
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For those that are/will be in Ottawa tail end of November, the city will be the location of a CUAS showcase for companies to show off what their designs can do in an urban environment. Should be noted that only detection will be permitted, but those that can do interception will still be allowed to participate.
www.canada.ca
Counter Uncrewed Aerial Systems Sandbox 2025 (Urban) - Canada.ca
Can you detect our Red Team’s drones in an urban environment?
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For those that are/will be in Ottawa tail end of November, the city will be the location of a CUAS showcase for companies to show off what their designs can do in an urban environment. Should be noted that only detection will be permitted, but those that can do interception will still be allowed to participate.
Counter Uncrewed Aerial Systems Sandbox 2025 (Urban) - Canada.ca
Can you detect our Red Team’s drones in an urban environment?
Sounds very Canadian.
We have always been happier as umpire than player.
Counting shots in Vietnam.
Monitoring ceasefire violations.
Now we will count the number of drone strikes in Canada.
....
To paraphrase Henry II:
Won't someone rid us of these turbulent drones?
Ignorant comment.
Some of you have been out so long you seem to have lost reading comprehension.
It's a science fair in the middle of a city. You expect them to randomly allow vendors to test out kill mechanisms there?
Do you even know what IDEaS is about?
HavokFour
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Reminder that this is for systems designed for small drones (think Spider web) and not long range drones. Tall buildings and the ability to fly extremely low make them much harder to detect and intercept with more traditional AD.
More importantly IDEAS is an R&D forum where companies get to pitch mid TRL ideas to the government. It gives bureaucrats and industry exposure to each other. It's networking. The real work comes after.
Policing Canada is a very large endeavour. Policing CAF is a pretty small one. The overwhelming majority of RCMP police work could not plausibly be claimed to have a defense nexus. Maybe a very small bit of national security, border integrity, and northern patrol work could, along with a few other niches. Not nearly enough to justify moving a civilian police service under the defence portfolio. Particularly while the Mounties continue to provide contract policing, which squarely falls under provincial constitutional responsibility.That's probably all too true.
But I do see opportunities to come closer together and yes, it needs an adjustment of the CCG's (and IMHO) the RCMP's statements of work/contracts/ training etc.
The RCMP already does some basic military training when you consider first aid, small arms, tactics and even drill. The first thing that I see about the French Gendarmerie and the Italian Carabinieri is that they can march like military units and carry arms. When I see the US CG I see that their boats/ships carry armaments appropriate to their security duties. They are even statutorily part of the "armed" services.
It's not like there aren't models of what the CGG and RCMP could be transformed into with a little effort. And yes. I'm all for the RCMP becoming our military police and transforming our MPs into a security force, a POW handling agency and traffic control. Leave "policing" to the RCMP.
Sure there are obstacles; they can be overcome. All that's missing is a government with a will to move the goal posts.
RCMP are a public safety agency, and have a significant role to play in the national security realm, but are not rightly considered a national defence entity despite potential minor program/mandate overlaps.
QV
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That is correct. But note that both the Gendarmerie and Carabinieri are part of the armed forces. France has two coast guards - a policing branch which is part of the Gendarmerie and a customs and excise branch which is civilian and part of French Customs. The Italian Corpo delle Capitanerie di porto - Guardia costiera is part of the navy. And, as I mentioned above the US CG is an armed service and is subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
JFK: "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard." As I said; this is a question of political will which I do not think that Canada has. So it's a mute point.
As far as easier is concerned I tend to think that breaking policing functions into two broad fields: those basically involved in law enforcement and those providing non-law enforcement security duties is easier in the long run.
The RCMP already do everything from neighbourhood detachment policing to high level national security. Law enforcement is part and parcel to their basic training DNA. Adding military law enforcement is easy for them. We might want to clean up the code of service discipline to facilitate that by keeping low-level disciplinary processes entirely within the non-judicial chain of command while making everything else part and parcel to the CCC including changing the judiciary to the Federal court Trial Division (They already run the Court Martial Appeal Court). It would simplify our military justice system.
Changing the MPs to a general security force also simplifies their training and duties significantly. It means we can use reservist MP's more efficiently and ramp up the production of them if and when needed.
Laws are easy to write and amend. It's managing their effects which can lead to difficulties. I see these types of changes to create simpler, more effective, systems for the future. What would be hard would be the transition phase where folks who are deeply invested in their current status quo would be resistant-some highly resistant. Do you grandfather the current members of the RCMP and CCG? Do you give them a golden parachute retirement option? All options to consider. Progress shouldn't be held up for their comfort level.
Additional down stream impacts would mean other technical trades are free up for their actual functions and not performing "WASF" for example, helping to relieve already strained occupations. I could write the doctrine for this shift in my sleep it's vexed me for so long.
QV
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Since the RCMP were accorded the status of a regiment of Dragoons, a cavalry regiment, and along with their links to the Canadian Provost Corps, I think we can make the case for them absorbing policing the military as a throw back to historical roots.
Yup! Just watch what happens when CAF absorbs an entity that’s unionized and makes overtime.Since the RCMP were accorded the status of a regiment of Dragoons, a cavalry regiment, and along with their links to the Canadian Provost Corps, I think we can make the case for them absorbing policing the military as a throw back to historical roots.
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I don't disagree at all with what you are saying.
I view policing the military more akin to the provincial police and contracted detachment work the RCMP already does in many localities.
Putting the whole force under the umbrella of DND is no different then the Gendarmerie and Carabinieri. They are a "militarized police force" and not a "military police force," albeit they have that role too. Their primary duties are law enforcement in the general and civilian sense and are often stationed in smaller rural centres that cannot operate their own policing.
I'm certainly not an expert on the interpretation of the NATO requirements to qualify as part of the funding percentage, but it appears that the requirements are fairly broad and permissive:
The first two factors are a requirement based on the level of training and equipping and are already close within the RCMP and with minor adjustments can be achieved. The last two are potential capabilities and not day to day duties. Those may require some legislative changes and they may not be that extensive when you read section 4 of the RCMP Act:
There are also fairly broad provisions for regulations:
I think the biggest legislative changes required would be under the NDA's provisions respecting the CF Provost Marshall and those could be started as simply as "the CF PM shall be an officer of the RCMP of x rank appointed by the commissioner of the RCMP and consented to by the CDS."
Don't get me wrong. I fully understand the difference between empowering legislation and the will to use it to create a paradigm shift in the fundamental employment of a group.
My point here quite simply is that with some minor tweaking of the objects of the force's training and duties, and leaving the vast majority of the force's basic functions and mandates untouched, you could convert the RCMP to a Gendarmerie without too much trouble (other than the anticipated friction within the force itself - they may need to be bribed with a "military factor" adjustment to their pay.)
The RCMP started as a para military force; this would just be returning to their roots.
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There's a civil service already for that.Yup! Just watch what happens when CAF absorbs an entity that’s unionized and makes overtime.
I wasn't talking about absorbing the RCMP at all. They would be a separate "armed force," akin to the way the army, navy and air force were before all this unification nonsense.
So, something like the “Gendarmerie Royale du Canada”?I don't disagree at all with what you are saying.
I view policing the military more akin to the provincial police and contracted detachment work the RCMP already does in many localities.
Putting the whole force under the umbrella of DND is no different then the Gendarmerie and Carabinieri. They are a "militarized police force" and not a "military police force," albeit they have that role too. Their primary duties are law enforcement in the general and civilian sense and are often stationed in smaller rural centres that cannot operate their own policing.
I'm certainly not an expert on the interpretation of the NATO requirements to qualify as part of the funding percentage, but it appears that the requirements are fairly broad and permissive:
The first two factors are a requirement based on the level of training and equipping and are already close within the RCMP and with minor adjustments can be achieved. The last two are potential capabilities and not day to day duties. Those may require some legislative changes and they may not be that extensive when you read section 4 of the RCMP Act:
There are also fairly broad provisions for regulations:
I think the biggest legislative changes required would be under the NDA's provisions respecting the CF Provost Marshall and those could be started as simply as "the CF PM shall be an officer of the RCMP of x rank appointed by the commissioner of the RCMP and consented to by the CDS."
Don't get me wrong. I fully understand the difference between empowering legislation and the will to use it to create a paradigm shift in the fundamental employment of a group.
My point here quite simply is that with some minor tweaking of the objects of the force's training and duties, and leaving the vast majority of the force's basic functions and mandates untouched, you could convert the RCMP to a Gendarmerie without too much trouble (other than the anticipated friction within the force itself - they may need to be bribed with a "military factor" adjustment to their pay.)
The RCMP started as a para military force; this would just be returning to their roots.
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The French model of national gendarmerie is worthy to note, but would not go down very well in Canada with the rural people who could be policed under such a model.
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Well you are already armed with "Military assault style firearms" meant only for war......
