Canada Seeks Lease on Predators/Chinooks

[Dissident]

MCpl Darryl Priede, a member of 3ASG Gagetown serving in Afghanistan with Combat Camera, was killed on Wed 30th May 2007, when the CH-47 Chinook that he was flying in was shot down, along with 5 American and 1 British servicemen.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/plocal/CTVNews/20070603/priede_trenton_070604/20070604/?hub=OttawaHome

Yeah, I remember that one.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

MCpl Darryl Priede, a member of 3ASG Gagetown serving in Afghanistan with Combat Camera, was killed on Wed 30th May 2007, when the CH-47 Chinook that he was flying in was shot down, along with 5 American and 1 British servicemen.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/plocal/CTVNews/20070603/priede_trenton_070604/20070604/?hub=OttawaHome

Hey Vern do you know if he worked at LFTEU? as he seems very familiar to me

 

[tomahawk6]

Helicopters give a commander alot of mobility and flexibility but like any aircraft they are susceptible to the vagaries of fate enemy fire, weather, mechanical failure and pilot error. They are NOT a magic bullet and if the command thinks that way then its a question of time before a bird goes down. The Predator on the other hand has alot of capability and would really be a benefit for the command. Unlike the current Canadian UAV the Predator can carry armament so if on patrol spots a target of opportunity it can respond or vector in an air strike.

 

[armyvern]

Hey Vern do you know if he worked at LFTEU? as he seems very familiar to me

He was an Image Tech here in 3ASG. It's quite possible that you'd have seen him out and about snapping pics of trial kit though.

 

[NCRCrow]

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/mapleleaf/article_e.asp?id=4071

states a helo crash....interesting

Nice article and fitting commemoration for MCpl Darryl Priede.

 

[Loachman]

Chinook will not significantly reduce the need for convoys, nor significantly increase survivability, and is, yes, as vulnerable to destruction as anything else.

What it will do is increase the capability of ground forces.

Should we indeed get sixteen as suggested, don't expect anymore than three to be deployed for long periods for several reasons, mainly personnel ones, and especially during the first few years.

We can direct Arty and CAS from Sperwer. Predator adds duration and limited onboard weaponry.

 

[Journeyman]

The Navy now says that the Army Night Stalkers’ MH-47 Chinook was forced to “outrun” its escort of Apache attack helicopters because the gunships were heavily armored and therefore flying more slowly at high altitude than the Chinook carrying the SEAL quick reaction force. This suggests that had the Apaches been able to fly ahead of the Chinook, they would have neutralized the militants who fired a rocket-propelled grenade

The Chinook "out ran" its Apache escort?

A) Disregard the fact that the AH-64's speed is about 60km/hr faster than the MH-47
B) Ignore the drill (let alone the common sense) that the AH trails, specifically in order to engage anything that threatens the lift helo (if they lead, the bad guys just wait for the softer target, leaving the AH in poor position to do much beyond launching flares)
C) Understand that as part of their trailing sheepdog routine, the AH's constantly change altitude and weave (I believe the technical term is "not getting dead"), and so at some point they may quite likely be above the escorted aircraft
D) Believe strongly that the NAVY author of the "outrunning escort" theory was mis-quoted, either accidentally or in order to "justify" some pre-established point by a crack-whore blogger who has unlikely been in a combat-situation requiring coordinated lift/fires.

:


Oh.....and a Sperwer can provide a valued link for directing Arty and CAS fires in certain situations, but for some folks, its noise and the quality of its optics are simply not adequate.

 

[armyvern]

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/mapleleaf/article_e.asp?id=4071

states a helo crash....interesting

Nice article and fitting commemoration for MCpl Darryl Priede.

http://milnewstbay.pbwiki.com/f/Priede01Jun07.pdf

 

[Loachman]

D) Believe strongly that the NAVY author of the "outrunning escort" theory was mis-quoted, either accidentally or in order to "justify" some pre-established point by a crack-***** blogger who has unlikely been in a combat-situation requiring coordinated lift/fires.

That would be my guess.

A) Disregard the fact that the AH-64's speed is about 60km/hr faster than the MH-47

Not having the proper pubs handy, and realizing that general public information is suspect and simplified frequently to the point of uselessness, from a variety of inadequate internet sources AH64D max level flight and cruise speeds are 141 to 149 kt and MH/CH47D max speed is 170 kt and cruise is 120 kt (MH47 from 160th SOAR site) (approx 40-60 km/hr difference) and CH47 cruise is 130 to 150 kt depending upon source (approx 0-40 km/hr difference). Configurations and environment will affect performance.

Oh.....and a Sperwer can provide a valued link for directing Arty and CAS fires in certain situations, but for some folks, its noise and the quality of its optics are simply not adequate./quote]

I am not sure what "certain situations" are, other than being airborne and in the right place, and I am not aware of any advantages to Predator in that regard. Yes, noise is a factor at the altitudes in which Sperwer operates (below 10,000 feet MSL). The EO sensor system is older technology, but the lift capability of Sperwer is also a limitation in the sensor capability.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Chinook will not significantly reduce the need for convoys, nor significantly increase survivability, and is, yes, as vulnerable to destruction as anything else.

What it will do is increase the capability of ground forces.

Should we indeed get sixteen as suggested, don't expect anymore than three to be deployed for long periods for several reasons, mainly personnel ones, and especially during the first few years.

We can direct Arty and CAS from Sperwer. Predator adds duration and limited onboard weaponry.

+1  It's important to have the capability for both heli and convoy operations to increase our ability to do our job while being flexible and unpredictable. Right now we only have the latter, and it's therefore much easier for the enemy to pattern and target our logistic networks and the troops contained therein. To try and fight a COIN campaign without the ability to move and protect large numbers of troops, and significant quantities of materiel, by air is madness.

 

[Loachman]

To try and

...

...conduct domestic operations...

...without the ability to move and protect large numbers of troops, and significant quantities of materiel, by air is madness.

This, along with the combat requirement, has been a serious capability lack for years.

We need a much better airmobile capability than we currently have (a handful of Griffons scattered nationwide) - like an airmobile brigade.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Agreed. So, beg, borrow, buy, steal or otherwise, I have to support these efforts to get us some kind of decent airmobility in place  -fast.

In Northern Ireland, if we had had to operate in South Armagh, Tyrone or Fermanagh without adequate helicopter support, the number of dead troops would have greatly exceeded the few hundred killed and wounded that we actually suffered. In many cases, IRA skill with IEDs was such that there was no 'green vehicle' movement at all on the roads in some areas for years, and everything was done on foot or by helicopter. And the scary thing is that in many ways, THAT campaign was far less dangerous than the current operational reality in Central Asia from what I can see (from depths of my armchair).

Let's go airmobile and save lives, Canada.

 

[George Wallace]

This, along with the combat requirement, has been a serious capability lack for years.

We need a much better airmobile capability than we currently have (a handful of Griffons scattered nationwide) - like an airmobile brigade.

Absolutely!  Canada took a step backwards with the disbandment of the Airborne Regt and the dissolution of the SSF.  Time to undo the madness and recreate an effective, quick reaction Force.  An Airmobile Bde would be such an asset. 

 

[stegner]

Is CSOR a quick reaction force or should it be viewed as something different?  I am sure the para units can also be deployed in a quick reaction capacity no? Also, this might sound dumb but instead of the Chinook's should the CF be looking at V-22's with a GAU-19 mounted in the nose?