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Canadian Military involvment in Iraq, and Canadian political support. - The Canadian Forces going to Iraq?

Hope it doesn't happen.  What are the thoughts on this one?

Harper warns Grits about 'deception' on Iraq
CTV.ca News Staff

Conservative Leader Stephen Harper is warning the Liberal government will pay a "severe price" if it sends Canadian troops to Iraq.

"I remembered how the prime minister attacked us during the federal election for wanting to spend more on defence,'' Harper told reporters Saturday in Halifax.

"I sat through an election campaign where the prime minister accused me of having secret plans to send troops to Iraq. If it turns out he has secret plans, this has to be one of the biggest election deceptions in history.''

However, Harper didn't rule out supporting such an initiative if he could be convinced it was safe.

He was in Halifax to inspect the fire-damaged HMCS Chicoutimi and to speak to the Nova Scotia Progressive Conservative Party's annual meeting.

Harper was responding to a report that Canadian troops may be deployed to Iraq to help with reconstruction if Prime Minister Paul Martin agrees to the anticipated request from U.S. President George Bush.

The two leaders are expected to discuss the issue when they meet later this month in Brussels for a NATO summit meeting, the Toronto Star reported Saturday.

The paper says a small contingent of 40 Canadian troops would be sent abroad, joining another 300 NATO forces -- if Martin agrees.

The news comes days after Bush's state of the union address. In it, he called on his allies for more foreign aid and support for Iraq's new government after a Jan. 30 election that Bush deemed "a great and historic achievement."

The mandate of the Canadian troops would be to help train Iraqi troops and prepare the violence-ravaged country for the eventual withdrawal of foreign troops.

The Star reports that sources have told it Canada is considering the notion more favourably after last weekend's successful elections in Iraq.

CTV's Rosemary Thompson told Newsnet the Prime Minister's Office is saying they haven't had an official request yet.

If it did happen and Martin agrees to the request, "it could be fireworks in the House," she says.

"I spoke to two opposition leaders today. They both said that Parliament should be consulted before this happens. They both want a vote in the House of Commons."

The decision would be controversial following the move by former prime minister Jean Chretien to keep Canada out of the war -- a move political analysts said alienated Chretien and Canada from Bush and the United States.

France, Germany, Belgium, Spain and Greece banned their nationals from participating in training efforts -- even when NATO increased its training troops from 60 to 300, the Star reported.

Earlier this week, Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew said Canada stands behind its southern neighbour.

"We share a lot of priorities with the President of the United States," Pettigrew told reporters on Parliament Hill.

"He can certainly count on Canada to be a steadfast partner in fighting terrorism around the world."
But in October 2004, Martin expressed his hesitance to commit any Canadian troops to Iraq.
"There's a limit to our resources," Martin said at the time.
"And that's why I'm putting the focus right now on Afghanistan, on Haiti.

"Whatever it is that we do, I really want to see us do it in an area that makes a difference," Martin said.

 
Question:

Why is Bush going to ask Canadian troops to go to Iraq?

Shouldn't the government that the people of Iraq just elected in the first democratic elections in over 50 years be the ones to do that, if that's what they want?  Otherwise, Iraqi's may see Canada as a puppet of the US.
 
civichick said:
Question:

Why is Bush going to ask Canadian troops to go to Iraq?

Shouldn't the government that the people of Iraq just elected in the first democratic elections in over 50 years be the ones to do that, if that's what they want?  Otherwise, Iraqi's may see Canada as a puppet of the US.

Who cares what Iraqi's think of us?  Sorry to be blunt, but honestly - they will have worries of their own for the next long while.  Canada is no longer an honest broker, and certainly not in Iraq.  We need to start thinking about helping our allies more - and maybe, just maybe, we'll get some breaks on softwood lumber, cattle, etc. 

 
Agamemnon said:
Ok why do we always have to pick up after the americans...first afghanistan...and now iraq...they screwed up let them pay for it...

Pick up after the Americans with regards to Afghanistan ???


We ALL have a stake in a safe democratic Iraq and afghanistan; if civil war erupts in Iraq it will be the new terrorist safe heaven and we dont want that. Its better to fight these dirt bags on their turf not on ours...

We sit and do nothing it will be no time before they are on our door steps.


 
Glorified Ape said:
The US can do that on its own - we shouldn't be providing de facto support for what was, no matter how you spice it up, an illegal war by aiding an illegal occupier(or at least PERCEIVED as such by a large portion of the world). Our international reputation is really all we've got to lend us clout in multilateral decisions, and no matter how people may like to poo-poo it, the fact remains that it's relatively respectable and we'd do best to keep it that way. Any overt, active assistance to the US with cleaning up their own mess in Iraq is necessarily going to detract from that reputation, save with the "coalition of the willing" which, when last I checked, consisted of a plethora of developing and undeveloped countries, one mourning ex-hegemon, and one increasingly sociopathic superpower.

Yes, because it certainly is admirable to have unquestioning, unthinking leadership which says "they're white, so we must be on their side". Western civilization is not at war - only a few of its constituents. The US doesn't not constitute "western civilization". I think I am looking at the 'big picture', I just don't see it as a black and white, us and them situation characterized by "with us or against us" type thinking. We're not living in Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" paranoid's fantasy world - things are a little more intricate and nuanced than that. As I stated above, I think more harm would be done to our reputation by assisting the US in cleaning up their mess than it's worth. Openly associating ourselves with the offending party in what has been one of the dirtiest, most divisive conflicts of late is going to do us no good. The only way we could do it and still retain our reputation is if the UN gave the go-ahead since, as of now, there's no other world body capable of lending the credibility the UN can. And yes, I know people will say "the UN sucks, it's useless, it's got no credibility" but that's flying in the face of the active participation of almost every state on earth and that's where the credibility comes from - inclusion and representation breed legitimacy.

We had an obligation under NATO for Afghanistan, we didn't for Iraq and thus have no reason, aside from the "help big brother, maybe we'll get an honourary mention" motivation. The US can manage just fine without a handful of Canadian trainers, so why bother? The effort would undoubtedly serve a largely gestural purpose, the subtext of which will most assuredly stick us in the Bush camp in the eyes of the world - somewhere we don't particularly want to be if we want to be perceived as a respectable mediator, peace builder, and supporter of global governance.


Excellent post Glorified Ape. This is the kind of sound judgement we need in the CF.
 
Glorified Ape said:
The US can do that on its own - we shouldn't be providing de facto support for what was, no matter how you spice it up, an illegal war by aiding an illegal occupier(or at least PERCEIVED as such by a large portion of the world).

Illegal according to what, the UN?   Who defines casus belli for the US - you, Togo and the People's Republic of China?

Anyways, "illegal war" is an old and tired argument - the fact on the ground is that their is just "war" and we have the opportunity to choose what side of the fence we will come down.

Our international reputation is really all we've got to lend us clout in multilateral decisions, and no matter how people may like to poo-poo it, the fact remains that it's relatively respectable and we'd do best to keep it that way.

Reputation...hah.   Fat lot that does us when the rest of the world realises that we can't or won't act on our convictions.   Talk to some of the guys here who've had to haggle with Balkan Warlords, you'll see where Canada's reputation gets you - as General Mackenzie figured it out, you got to be the baddest sonuvabitch on the block.

Any overt, active assistance to the US with cleaning up their own mess in Iraq is necessarily going to detract from that reputation,

That's a good attitude - "Leave the US to handle its own affairs, hopefully having Iraq regress into anarchy or fundamentalism so that the Yankees learn a lesson.   Then, when Western influence and capability has sufficiently diminished in the Region, we can all rely on our reputation to save us from the next terrorist attack...."

It is in our interest to see that the US succeeds in stabilizing Iraq so that we don't end up with further instability in the region, so we ignore the situation to our own peril.

save with the "coalition of the willing" which, when last I checked, consisted of a plethora of developing and undeveloped countries, one mourning ex-hegemon, and one increasingly sociopathic superpower.

There's that arrogant anti-Americanism I've come to know and love.   And who exactly is the "coalition of the unwilling"?   Charlemagne (Germany and France) playing power politics, Russia protecting a key source of income, and Red China looking to poke its rival in the eye?

Yes, because it certainly is admirable to have unquestioning, unthinking leadership which says "they're white, so we must be on their side". Western civilization is not at war - only a few of its constituents. The US doesn't not constitute "western civilization". I think I am looking at the 'big picture', I just don't see it as a black and white, us and them situation characterized by "with us or against us" type thinking. We're not living in Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" paranoid's fantasy world - things are a little more intricate and nuanced than that. As I stated above, I think more harm would be done to our reputation by assisting the US in cleaning up their mess than it's worth. Openly associating ourselves with the offending party in what has been one of the dirtiest, most divisive conflicts of late is going to do us no good. The only way we could do it and still retain our reputation is if the UN gave the go-ahead since, as of now, there's no other world body capable of lending the credibility the UN can. And yes, I know people will say "the UN sucks, it's useless, it's got no credibility" but that's flying in the face of the active participation of almost every state on earth and that's where the credibility comes from - inclusion and representation breed legitimacy.

We had an obligation under NATO for Afghanistan, we didn't for Iraq and thus have no reason, aside from the "help big brother, maybe we'll get an honourary mention" motivation. The US can manage just fine without a handful of Canadian trainers, so why bother? The effort would undoubtedly serve a largely gestural purpose, the subtext of which will most assuredly stick us in the Bush camp in the eyes of the world - somewhere we don't particularly want to be if we want to be perceived as a respectable mediator, peace builder, and supporter of global governance.

That's seeing the situation from Western eyes.   Canada is in Afghanistan.   As far as fundamentalist terrorists are concerned, we are invaders of Dar-al-Islam and are in the opposing camp.   Going into Iraq, or even supporting the Americans politically, will not alter our reputation to the enemy one bit.

You argue against supporting the US in Iraq on the grounds that it is only an effort to curry favour with the American Hegemon.  

However, in order to do this, you argue for some sort of "reputation" that is based off of currying favour with the interests of France, Germany, Russia - all who clearly have their own thoughts and motives against an assertive US foreign policy.  Furthermore, you hinge the legitimacy of our reputation on some idealistic fawning over the United Nations, which has really done a bang-up in the last couple decades.  At the rate they're going, we can expect to see the Sudan as the new head of the Human Rights committee.

Your argument is no better or moral then the one to support the Americans and, as par for the course, seems to be driven more by some sort of personal dislike of the American administration rather then any realistic appreciation of the National Interest of Canada.
 
Quote from Bo,
Excellent post Glorified Ape. This is the kind of sound judgement we need in the CF.

...alright now we can add Mcgill to the mix of misguided studentology.........you guys are going to hate graduating and then finding out its a
big bad world out there. ;)
 
CFL ,you might want to shut your mouth.

And no its not the same in french or english   ;D hahaha

The Iraq war is unjustified regardless of Saddams capture..at least before the US armed forces invaded, people went to school etc...you know that the US armed force closed down all the schools because the teachers were in the baath party?!? if you were not in the baath party you were dead.

That war is for the oil in Iraq...The US invaded a sovreign nation...to take their oil away...their life blood.


Oh you think sending 40 troops if to" help" your wrong...their are economic goals behind that...Mr.Bush and Mr.Martin agree to give Canada reconstructing contracts or we wouldint send a janitor over there.

so once again they under estimated their enemy.They posed no threat to the US.Let them finish what they started.
 
Quote,
if you were not in the baath party you were dead.
...and thats good enough reason for war for me....NEXT?

....and I have had it with you, lad,...I  totally disagree with several others[hi, sigpig/ape ;)] but at least they bring some form of articulate arguement with them and not the kife you spout.You have been warned a few times now so here is the first step...

..and as for the Sea-King report, I'm calling BS on that.
 
mah what report?

Its part of a class i have,having to write a 17 page opinion.

2nd...ok ill shut up...




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"band de bloke"
 
Greetings,

After reading all these replies one at a time I can only say.....phew hot topic! A lot of detailed analysis and opinions on this subject. I guess it comes down to this; The politicians will decide right or wrong whether to send troops. If ordered to go, we will send our best, and as usual, they will do an outstanding job and gain the respect of our military allies from across the globe. With regards to UN and other nations refusing to help? They are not neighbours to the U.S., and we are. Do we really want to be lumped in with these other groups anyway?  Me personally, I have always supported the American cause with regards to global terrorism, and therefore support any help we can offer as Canadians.

Thanks.
 
If Canada wants to be the middle power of influence that punches above its weight, and carve a niche for itself in this century, then we need to get aboard something. The 20th century  notion of us being the world peacekeepers is now dead, and the Cdn public is realizing this.

The role of country rebuilder, with our reputations in the CF, election observers, police etc, would be a good place for us to explore.

No matter if the war which destroyed the country was just or unjust, the ongoing international security demands that nation rebuilding in conflict areas be done right the first time, as to ensure the instability does not continue.

We're well started on this road in Afghanistan, Ukraine, Palestine, why not try in Iraq as well?

 
Agamemnon, looking at your bare bones profile it is fairly obvious you have never served a day in the Forces. You mention that you have to write a paper as part of a class, wow, another armchair general.
You tell CFL, a serving member to shut his mouth, well I've got something for you. Please **** off at your earliest convenience :threat:. You are a sanctimonious piece of crap! :rage:
To the moderators of this site, I apologize for my language but sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade!

MOD EDIT: language?...what language?...deleted by mod.
 
Well...once again your right...arm chair general...reguardless thats way above you...and well a rank you will never achieve.

well since the mods wont bother bad language...i'm sure they wont bother with me...

your reply is after the fact and i stoped...all your doing is starting up a flame...

and also how the mods arent doing their job...see after this post they will only warn me of beign otu of line..when ou started this flame...

so shut up and move on.



 
Infanteer said:
Illegal according to what, the UN?   Who defines casus belli for the US - you, Togo and the People's Republic of China?

Anyways, "illegal war" is an old and tired argument - the fact on the ground is that their is just "war" and we have the opportunity to choose what side of the fence we will come down.

The whole proscription against aggressive war stems back to the Treaty of Westphalia, the UN just reiterated it. It was that proscription that sent us into Kuwait - everyone knew aggressive war is dangerous, illegal, and just cause for intervention. In fact, along with genocide it's one of the few justifications for intervention. Now, we can dispense with the peremptory norms we've had for quite some time and revert back to some Hobbesian state of nature where the sole decider of right is might but that runs somewhat counter to the whole democratic principle of the rule of law. The system's not anywhere near perfect but crapping all over it every chance we get simply because playing by the rules doesn't favour our preferences at the time isn't going to help it any.

Reputation...hah.   Fat lot that does us when the rest of the world realises that we can't or won't act on our convictions.   Talk to some of the guys here who've had to haggle with Balkan Warlords, you'll see where Canada's reputation gets you - as General Mackenzie figured it out, you got to be the baddest sonuvabitch on the block.

That approach isn't working to well for the US right now, the way I see it. Sure, Iraq is their patsy now but the majority of their former allies are now looking for new ways to circumvent their inclusion and the majority of the earth seems disgusted with their conduct. Military power is mattering less and less these days, imo. The old days of clubbing your neighbour (or anyone) over the head because you didn't like them or wanted something they had are gone. Nowadays, clubbing anyone over the head, without sufficient cause, only earns you a hefty debt, compromised trade levels, and the reputation for being an unreasonable psycopath.

That's a good attitude - "Leave the US to handle its own affairs, hopefully having Iraq regress into anarchy or fundamentalism so that the Yankees learn a lesson.   Then, when Western influence and capability has sufficiently diminished in the Region, we can all rely on our reputation to save us from the next terrorist attack...."

It is in our interest to see that the US succeeds in stabilizing Iraq so that we don't end up with further instability in the region, so we ignore the situation to our own peril.

For the sake of the Iraqi people, I don't hope that Iraq descends into chaos. As for terrorist attacks, I'd say we probably have more of a terror problem now than before Iraq. There was no terror link to Iraq, no matter how hard the administration tried to find/manufacture one. All that was achieved, terror wise, by invading Iraq was to give terrorist organizations all that much more to recruit with.

There's that arrogant anti-Americanism I've come to know and love.   And who exactly is the "coalition of the unwilling"?   Charlemagne (Germany and France) playing power politics, Russia protecting a key source of income, and Red China looking to poke its rival in the eye?

And countless other European, Asian, South American, Middle Eastern, etc. countries. The "willing" are in the minority, the severe minority.

That's seeing the situation from Western eyes.   Canada is in Afghanistan.   As far as fundamentalist terrorists are concerned, we are invaders of Dar-al-Islam and are in the opposing camp.   Going into Iraq, or even supporting the Americans politically, will not alter our reputation to the enemy one bit.

I don't care what the terrorists think of us - that's not going to be changed, you're right. I'm not concerned with how terrorists perceive our alliances/reputation, I'm more concerned with the other countries in the world, meaning the majority, that don't back this war or the neo-colonial crusade it represents. The US is our ally on many things, that doesn't mean we have to be allies on everything.

You argue against supporting the US in Iraq on the grounds that it is only an effort to curry favour with the American Hegemon.

No, I attribute that as the effect it will have. My opposition is that it will damage us with little or no benefit. The US will trade with us regardless of our aid or lack thereof.

However, in order to do this, you argue for some sort of "reputation" that is based off of currying favour with the interests of France, Germany, Russia - all who clearly have their own thoughts and motives against an assertive US foreign policy.   Furthermore, you hinge the legitimacy of our reputation on some idealistic fawning over the United Nations, which has really done a bang-up in the last couple decades.   At the rate they're going, we can expect to see the Sudan as the new head of the Human Rights committee.

Our reputation isn't based on currying favour with anyone, it's based on our conduct. We've been an honest broker many times and are recognized as a largely peaceful, progressive participant in world affairs. That's not to say we won't go to war when it's necessary and up until now our war record is pretty good. ANY attempts to help the US in Iraq without UN approval will, in the eyes of most, put us in Bush's camp and thus dirty us in future relations with the "unwilling" states (read: the majority of the world). The US is decreasing in its importance and Iraq has only sped this up as Bush pushed a "with us or against us" rift, only to find the majority of the Earth to be standing on the other side. 50 years ago it would have been the opposite. We should keep this in mind - our relations with the rest of the world, in future, will be more important than tying ourselves, in everything, to the US. Our trade relationship is here to stay - its codification in NAFTA and the WTO ensures the US is severely limited in its ability to mess with it. It tried it with Europe, got slapped with ultra-heavy penalties by the WTO, and was forced to reconcile at a loss.

Your argument is no better or moral then the one to support the Americans and, as par for the course, seems to be driven more by some sort of personal dislike of the American administration rather then any realistic appreciation of the National Interest of Canada.

My argument isn't driven by any dislike for the US, it's driven by my belief that it's more important to play a leading role in developing an effective system of global governance than a background supporting role in what I believe is a doomed attempt to refurbish declining hegemony. Do I support the war in Iraq - no. Not because it's the US fighting it but because I believe it runs counter to the interests of Canada and the world. You're right - the UN has serious issues and I agree wholeheartedly that it needs reform. I don't believe actively undermining it and violating the most fundamental principles of international diplomacy is going to do it, us, or anyone else any good. Narrow, heavy handed considerations of "national interest" are what have motivated the worst wars and atrocities in human history. How are we ever going to improve things if everyone just keeps on functioning solely in their own interest with no consideration of the effects on anyone else? We can achieve our national interests 99.999999% of the time without having to attack, invade, or ally ourselves with those who do.
That's the whole point of international institutions - to facilitate communication and cooperation with a regimen of incentives and penalties, avoiding the costly, inefficient, and counter-productive conflicts that have plagued us since time immemorial.

Bo said:
Excellent post Glorified Ape. This is the kind of sound judgement we need in the CF.

Thanks, although I think the majority here would disagree with you.  ;D
 
Glorified Ape, I've read your reply and I could attempt a point-by-point rebuttal, but I'm not going to - all it will do is extend the exasperating tit-for-tat spiel that has been running on this forum for years now.   Rather, I'm going to offer an observation and a bit of a challenge.

As I read your post, I pick up a tone of argument through your use of terms like "sociopathic" and "sustaining hegemonic status" that seems to indicate that you believe that the US is making a desperate bid to shore up its status as Global Superpower.   As well, you constantly appeal to notions of "consensus" and "global governance" which, although sounding nice and fluffy, have never been a serious factor in the conduct of nations since the Peace of Westphalia (even the Concert of Europe was fraught with intrigue, interest, and revolution).   Hell, none of the Allies could even gather a consensus on how to defeat Fascism in WWII and what to do when that was done - I could see the an internet thread in 1945 debating Churchill's staunch realism vs. Roosevelt's hopeful idealism (which was manipulated by Stalin's totalitarian paranoia).

I will assert that Iraq must be viewed agianst the general backdrop of US involvement in the Middle East.   It, like the "War on Terror", must be viewed as a whole.   I do not believe Iraq is merely an independant effort by the United States to grab power and prop up its Hegemonic status; this status was assured when the Taman Guards chose to not crush the Muscovites marching in the streets and I contend that American strength, regardless of Iraq, will be unrivaled for at least the next few decades - the preponderance in all facets of strength (military, economic, cultural, digital) point to this.  

Ratherl, I believe America (along with its Allies) have gone into Iraq to decisively engaging themselves in the Middle East for the same reason they decisively engaged themselves in Europe following WWII - it was in their interest (and the interest of other liberal democracies) to curb the rise of ideological terrorism, only now Bolshevism has been replaced with xenophobic Fundamentalism which, since the withdrawl of the Soviets from the Middle East, is feeding off of people who live in squalor and destitution under tin-pot regimes.  Iraq, like Guadalcanal or North Africa, is merely one set of battles in a grand campaign to deal with a world-view that is fundamentally opposed to the very principles that we have thrived under.

To paraphrase Lord Palmerston, "States don't have friends, they have interests".   Canada should not occupy itself with seeking "friends" through its "reputation"; this will only serve to have our "Soft Power" crumble when others choose to serve their interest over "friendship" with us.   I believe it is in our interest to strategically commit ourselves to the Middle East - not through back room deals and political back-scratching as the French, Russians, and Chinese have been prone to do, but rather along with the Americans and British to effect decisive change in behaviours and attitudes.   Whether this means mere political support or a small troop commitment is not important, only that we recognize that we must exercise our influence at the center of Dar-al-Islam lest Western influence in the area takes a dramatic turn for the worse and we risk being held for ransom by politically hostile actors.

Here is my outlook on the American effort in Iraq that I have pasted from another forum.   Read it if you want.   Hopefully, it may provide a different approach to interpreting events in the Middle East.   If you still wish to argue rabid and sociopathic imperialism, then go for it - but the disjointed arguments for this approach (oil, Bush, racism, failing economy) don't seem to add up.

With regards to Iraq, I think going in was a good strategy.   The fundamental problems confronting the US after Sept 11 was a whole gamut of issues arising out of an area that is inherently unstable, unfriendly and occupying a key piece of geopolitical real-estate.   As such, America (and the rest of us, whether we like it or not) could not afford not to engage itself in the Middle East in an assertive manner for two reasons:

1) The preponderant importance of petroleum in sustaining our economic well-being.   If the strength of America (and the West) was to fade in the eyes of Jihadis, fundamentalists, tin-pot dictators, and slippery Saudi princes, then there was a real risk of losing the "cooperative" influence that the West possessed in the region.   Whether we like it or not, going to war for oil is necessary - if someone wishes to leave the well-being of close to a billion people in the hands of dictators and/or mullahs, then they're not thinking with their head.

2)   The nature of the threat demanded it (Props to Kirkhill for elaborating on this one to me one night).   In the last big geopolitical struggle, Containment was a strategy that worked because the ideology of Communism was sustained and propelled by the Red Army and the Red Army was sustained and propelled by a system that contained the seeds of its own demise (which George Kennan very keenly pointed out with the "X" Article).   The threat was very conventional, and as such could be penned in by conventional responses around the periphery of the Soviet Empire (hence "Containment")

We are now faced with a very different situation, as the attacks of September 11 brought to stark clarity.   The forces involved in this geopolitical struggle are "4th Generation" in nature.

http://d-n-i.net/second_level/fourth_generation_warfare.htm

How do you "contain" a threat that slips through your defences by using the freedoms that civil society guarantees?   How do you stop a threat that ignores your Carrier Battle Groups and takes down the symbol of your economic well-being with a set of box cutters and a ruthless will?   Obviously, containing the threat posed by terrorist forces cannot be accomplished by building a ring around their center of gravity - as our very way of living leaves the ring porous enough for enemy agents and cells to slip through.   That leaves America (and the West) with two alternatives:

1.   Disengagement (An immediate goal of the Jihadis).   Completely unworkable.   As I said above, the geopolitical nature of the Middle East will not allow us to do so until we can disengage our economy from petroleum dependency.   The world will not ignore the Middle East and the Middle East cannot spurn the world.   As well, like it or not, America has put itself firmly in the camp of Israel.   Considering a good proportion of the Middle East still officially refuses the right of the Jews to exist, we won't be leaving our ally high-and-dry - especially when they are now armed with nuclear weapons and the will to use them if faced with extinction.

2.   Intervention.   This is the policy I see the US currently engaging in, and on a general level, I support it.   This is how I see (and justify) the US invasion and occupation (lets not cloud words and intentions) of Iraq.

- The US invaded Afghanistan, a key center of gravity for the "Jihadis" (although I don't believe this term does complete justice to the enemy forces, I'll use it for simplicity's sake).   The Taliban regime was a key force in legitimizing and supporting AQ.   However, once that was initiated, the stark fact remained that the US was on the periphery of the geopolitical area that was hostile to it.   Staying in Afghanistan would be the equivalent of trying to undermine Communism by beating the Cambodians.

Where is a more focused "center of gravity" for Jihadi operations?   Here is my guesses:

-   Pakistan: Player in the Jihadi game.   However, Pervez Musharraf is generally friendly (in a Realpolitik kind of way) and realizes that the "radicalization" of Pakistani society by Zia in the '80's was a big mistake and a threat to his well being.   Plus, Pakistan has, despite an rocky relationship, traditionally been an ally of the West and the United States, and Musharraf wouldn't want to risk having America turn to India now that Militant Islam is enemy #1.   Best use what influence is still there to let things evolve rather then squandering a good political link through antagonising a General on a precarious throne.

-   Egypt: Very populous country pervaded by Jihadi elements.   However, the Mubarak government is very friendly to Western interests and is a agent for Middle East stability.   Attacking or coercing them would be unwise.

-   Syria: Still a bit player in the Jihadi game, but not so much anymore.   Assad Jr. can be turned if the West plays its cards right, meaning that the Syrian "monolith" of Assad Sr. is no more.   Better not to spoil the water by throwing force on this one - it may only act to alienate Assad and throw him into the corner of his fathers cronies.

-   Saudi Arabia: One of the big players in the Jihadi game - however, attacks on the Holy Land of Islam would be very foolhardy indeed.   Again, leveraging the side of the House of Saud that enjoys sports cars, yachts, and Ivy league universities is the way to go.

- Iran: Although you can't put Iran in the Jihadi camp (Wahabi's view Shi'ites as Jews in disguise) they contribute to a unfriendly geopolitical atmosphere due to their past state-sponsorship of terrorism, their fervent anti-Westernism, and their overt attempt to become the player in the Middle East.   However, Iran would be a really tough nut to crack and would not really do much in stemming the activities of groups like Al Qaeda (Attacking Irish Protestants will not do anything to the IRA).   Better to let the intelligent and energetic generation of young Iranians who are not to pleased with authoritarian Mullahs do the job from within.

This leaves us, with, surprise of surprises, Iraq.

- Iraq:   Although not a big player in the Jihadi game, Saddam certainly didn't mind helping to poke America and the West in the eye.   However, following September 11, Iraq started to look more and more like the perfect target for a strategy of intervention for the following reasons:

1) It was run by a tin-pot dictator who's time was up.   Not only did he succeed in isolating himself from his neighbours by attack east (Iran), west (Kuwait), and south (Saudi Arabia), but his attempt to be the "big-man" on the block had generally turned world opinion against him (unless you were the French or the Russians and you were making a pretty penny off him).   Despite the various prostrations of the anti-war crowd, no one can really offer a good reason for leaving Saddam on his throne.   He was much easier to take down then any other of the regimes of the middle-east

2) It contained a fractured (if any) civil society.   Just like Afghanistan - with its conglomerate populations of Pashtuns, Hazaris, Uzbeck, and Tajiks - Iraq was an artificial nation composed of Shi'ite's and Kurds living under the whip of a regime of Sunnis.   America and the West had little to fear from fracturing the State of Iraq as the complete lack of civil society meant that we would find willing and able friends.   Although they were a little suspicious at first, seeing how they were left high-and-dry in 1992, their opposition to the initial assault on the Ba'ath regime for the purpose of occupation was little to none (of course, the situation has now changed).   I think that attempting to go into a much more homogenized state with a more robust civil society would have proved to be a larger headache to American intervention efforts.

3) Iraq's key geopolitical position.   Look at a map of the Middle East - Iraq is the center peg.   If containing the periphery is not going to work, then you may as well go right to the center if you are going to attempt to intervene.   A strong Western presence in Iraq puts it in the "eye of the hurricane".   I am sure that attitudes of various Jihadi elements have changed now that there are over 100,000 angry American soldiers in Iraq.   Now that America has a credible force that is on the border with Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran and has shares in an key OPEC state, they are in a good position to enforce behaviour change that is geared towards the interests of the West.   It is this behaviour change that I believe is the key to going into Iraq and intervening in the Middle East in general.

However, I am skeptical of mixing the strategy of behaviour modification with some sort of attempt at the short-term spread of democracy - I call it democracy on the end of a bayonet.   I do not believe that a strategy of evangelism (for lack of any better term) is suited to Western interests.   Trying to force some facade of a liberal democratic order is about as useless an expression of Wilsonian idealism as there is.   This is why I am not sure I support active intervention in the civil society of Iraq.   It was fractured from the artifice of the Ba'athist regime, conflict was a foregone conclusion - Iraq would need some time to sort out its new state identity.   With America putting its units in Saddam's palaces and having bureaucrats and tanks moving about during this is the equivalent of sticking your hand in a hornets nest right after you pounded it with a stick.   End result, you get drawn in and two-bit chumps like Moqtada al-Sadr all of the sudden gain real currency as players in the game (which undermines the efforts of guys like Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani, who are generally friendly to your cause).  

As well, getting tangled up in the populations of Iraq leads to another issue that I believe affects attitudes - the fact that American soldiers in Iraq do draw Jihadis out like a magnet.   However valid soem may feel the theory of engaging Jihadi forces in Iraq rather then in America is, I am sure that the citizens of Iraq do not appreciate the fact that their houses, markets, and mosques are being used as a battleground by US and Jihadi fighters.   Sticking combat soldiers in cities seems to be burning more bridges then their building.

I often wonder if a strategy of "sitting back" in the ensuing scrum would have been a more effective way to go about things.   Leave the Tigris and Euphrates floodplain and move to the uninhabited desert of the West.   Let Iraq iron out itself - they can come to their own conclusions on how to rule themselves.   Someone was keen to point out that the people of Iraq were an ancient and complex civilization while we Westerners were living in huts and worshipping trees.   Offer help if asked and don't pick sides and don't put your military forces in someone else's fight.   Use Special Operations Forces to make forays into any Jihadi elements that can be identified and wipe them out quietly and effectively.

Make it clear to the people of Iraq that the West is not their on an "evangelist" mission (YOU WILL BE A DEMOCRACY - VOTE!), but are in the Middle East to intervene against a faction that is unfriendly our interests.   As well, make it clear to whoever comes out on top of the scrum that they have to play ball with the international community.   Use diplomacy - the "carrot and the stick" - to show Iraq that the West will not tolerate replacing Saddam with another despot who thrives off of nepotism and acts as a destabilizing force in the region.   The fate of Saddam Hussein should be proof enough that the West means what it says.   There was a good article in a recent issue of Foreign Affairs that pointed out how Pax Romana and Pax Britannica were built and sustained by assertive and yet subtle diplomacy along with the force to back it up.   As Teddy Roosevelt said - "Walk Softly but Carry a Big Stick...."

The occupants of the Middle East are a tough and proud people; they will recognize and respect the strength of Western and American might and resolve to undermine the threat of terrorism at it's center of gravity - the unstable geopolitical region of the Middle East.   However, I do not believe they will respect us if we use the might and resolve to attempt to rebuild Iraq in our image.

Quote bt MissMolsonIndy
"If this is the case, "The root cause of Terrorism is a lust for power"

Then is the root cause of US foreign policy and attempt to maintain their hegemonic power over everyone else...?


Foreign Policy is an expression of interests.   When foreign policies clash (with either state or sub-state actors), then you have a power struggle (politics...or war, which is merely an extention of politics by other means... ).   So sure, US Foreign Policy, like any other interaction between two competing groups, is essentially based upon power.

However, I don't think that US Foreign Policy is rooted in aggressive imperialism, which the tone of your question seems to suggest (if you weren't, then I apologize).   US policies, like the policies of any other state, are geared towards the promotion of self-interest.   As I said in the big spiel above, the US seems to be pursuing the policy of intervention in the Middle East to secure itself from attacks which could reach catastrophic proportions and to force behaviour modification in a region in a geopolitical region that has traditionally been unfriendly to Western interests.

However, they don't appear willing to want to stay in the Middle East any more then they were willing to expand control over previous conquests, almost all of which the pulled away from (Philippines, Cuba, etc, etc).

Assertive?   Yes.   Aggressive, expansionist, and imperialist?   No.
 
http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1107703180215_6?hub=topstories

No plan yet to deploy troops to Iraq: Pettigrew
CTV.ca News Staff

Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew says Canada has no intention to send troops to Iraq.

His response came after reports that Prime Minister Paul Martin will be asked by U.S. President George Bush to deploy 40 Canadian troops to help with reconstruction efforts in Iraq.

The two leaders are expected to discuss the matter at this month's NATO summit in Belgium.

"We are already contributing to the training of Iraqi police forces here in Jordan, so we will see what the NATO summit leads to. Our reconstruction contribution will be significant," Pettigrew told CTV's Question Period from Amman, Jordan.

He said he was not ruling out sending more troops to help with the reconstruction efforts outside of the violence-ravaged country.

He maintained that Martin has not strayed from his original position on keeping Canadian forces out of Iraq.

"Prime Minister Martin has always been very clear that our contribution to the reconstruction of Iraq would not bring boots to the ground," he said.

Both Conservative and NDP leaders expressed their reservations about sending Canadian troops to Iraq.

"This was an invasion that Canadians opposed," NDP Leader Jack Layton said.

Layton told CTV's Rosemary Thompson that the move would be a dangerous one, and a reversal of position on the part of Prime Minister Paul Martin.

On Saturday Conservative Stephen Harper warned that the Liberal government will pay a "severe price" if it sends Canadian troops to Iraq.

"I remembered how the prime minister attacked us during the federal election for wanting to spend more on defence," Harper told reporters in Halifax.

"I sat through an election campaign where the prime minister accused me of having secret plans to send troops to Iraq. If it turns out he has secret plans, this has to be one of the biggest election deceptions in history."

However, Harper didn't rule out supporting such an initiative if he could be convinced it was safe.

The Toronto Star reported Saturday that a small contingent of 40 Canadian troops would be sent abroad, joining another 300 NATO forces -- if Martin agrees.

The news came days after Bush's state of the union address.

In it, he called on his allies for more foreign aid and support for Iraq's new government after a Jan. 30 election that Bush deemed "a great and historic achievement."

The mandate of the Canadian troops would be to help train Iraqi troops and prepare the violence-ravaged country for the eventual withdrawal of foreign troops.

The Star reports that sources have told it Canada is considering the notion more favourably after last weekend's successful elections in Iraq.

The Prime Minister's Office told CTV they haven't had an official request yet.

If it did happen and Martin agrees to the request, "it could be fireworks in the House," Thompson reported.

"I spoke to two opposition leaders today. They both said that Parliament should be consulted before this happens. They both want a vote in the House of Commons."

The decision would be controversial following the move by former prime minister Jean Chretien to keep Canada out of the war -- a move political analysts said alienated Chretien and Canada from Bush and the United States.

France, Germany, Belgium, Spain and Greece banned their nationals from participating in training efforts -- even when NATO increased its training troops from 60 to 300, the Star reported.

Earlier this week, Pettigrew said Canada stands behind its southern neighbour.

"We share a lot of priorities with the President of the United States," Pettigrew told reporters on Parliament Hill.

"He can certainly count on Canada to be a steadfast partner in fighting terrorism around the world."

But in October 2004, Martin expressed his hesitance to commit any Canadian troops to Iraq.

"There's a limit to our resources," Martin said at the time.

"And that's why I'm putting the focus right now on Afghanistan, on Haiti.

"Whatever it is that we do, I really want to see us do it in an area that makes a difference," Martin said.

With files from The Canadian Press and The Associated Press
 
Glorified Ape said:
Our reputation isn't based on currying favour with anyone, it's based on our conduct. We've been an honest broker many times and are recognized as a largely peaceful, progressive participant in world affairs. That's not to say we won't go to war when it's necessary and up until now our war record is pretty good. ANY attempts to help the US in Iraq without UN approval will, in the eyes of most, put us in Bush's camp and thus dirty us in future relations with the "unwilling" states (read: the majority of the world). The US is decreasing in its importance and Iraq has only sped this up as Bush pushed a "with us or against us" rift, only to find the majority of the Earth to be standing on the other side. 50 years ago it would have been the opposite. We should keep this in mind - our relations with the rest of the world, in future, will be more important than tying ourselves, in everything, to the US. Our trade relationship is here to stay - its codification in NAFTA and the WTO ensures the US is severely limited in its ability to mess with it. It tried it with Europe, got slapped with ultra-heavy penalties by the WTO, and was forced to reconcile at a loss.

Ok, I'm not going to find rebuttals for every siingle thing you posted because frankly, it'd take too long and we'll just end up going full-circle.

As for this argument (the one I quoted), I think the softwood and beef incidents have showed how little the US care about the WTO and other organisations like it. They know we can't just cut off trade with them if we get pissed, because they're our only major trade partner. We cut them off, WE go into recession, not them. It'd hit them, but it wouldn't have nearly as much of an effect on them as it would on us.

However, I do agree that going along might "dirty us in future relations with the 'unwilling' states," but what can ya do? Like most politic decisions, this will be motivated by our economy.

Oh well, what can ya do? Martin and his cronies will just cheat again...
 
Pettigrew appears to rule out troops for Iraq
By BRIAN LAGHI
From Monday's Globe and Mail
07 Feb 05 


The Foreign Affairs Minister opened the door yesterday to using Canadian soldiers to train the Iraqi military, but only on the soil of a neighbouring country.

Responding to reports that Canada may soon receive a request from the U.S. government to send 40 troops to Iraq, Pierre Pettigrew said that Canada plans to participate in the reconstruction of that country, and that doing so may include using the Canadian Forces to train its military. However, he appeared to rule out the possibility that Canadians would go to Iraq to do it.

"Prime Minister [Paul] Martin has always been very clear that our contribution to the reconstruction of Iraq would not bring boots to the ground," Mr. Pettigrew said on the CTV current affairs program Question Period yesterday.

"We will see what NATO leads to. And I'm not ruling out activities outside Iraq. I'm not ruling them out, no."

Senior officials said yesterday that the U.S. government did not ask that Canada commit troops to Iraq as part of a North Atlantic Treaty Organization force of about 300 helping to train Iraqi troops, nor is it looking for that to happen.

However, they said a request may come from NATO's leadership at the organization's summit meeting in Brussels this month. Mr. Martin and U.S. President George W. Bush are expected to attend.

Canadian officials are spooked because they felt they were blindsided in December by Mr. Bush, who unexpectedly asked Canada to support his country's efforts to build a ballistic-missile defence shield.

"After what happened to us on BMD -- where everyone said it would not be raised -- I'm very reluctant to predict who will ask for what," the source said.

A request from Mr. Bush would put the federal government in a tricky position, given domestic opposition to the war in Iraq and Canada's decision two years ago not to take part in it.

Asked whether Canada could say no to a request from the United States while also saying no to participation in BMD, Mr. Pettigrew would say only that he wants to work closely with the United States.

"We are partners; we share a number of values."

A spokesman for the Prime Minister, Scott Reid, said Canada's position on Iraq has not changed.

"Canada was asked by the Bush government to send troops into Iraq nearly two years ago and we declined," he said. "That remains the government of Canada's position."

He added that the reconstruction of Iraq and its democratic development likely would be discussed.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050207.wxtrane0207/BNStory/National/
 
Just A Hick said:
Ive heard, they calling off all major tours / operations for a wile. Once they boys get back from kabul.

Source please.

Regards
 
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