Canadian modular assault rifle project, a C7 replacement?

[Halifax Tar]

Yes and no, a better ammo/weapon combo will serve all shooters better as you have reduced one area of error.
BUT
The shooter is generally always the point of failure in the chain, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I would suggest that the training system then be striving for a better shooter over a bunch of combat applicable shooting positions.


Well I would suggest that being able to quickly incapacitate a foe is the goal regardless - and in trenches one doesn't always get much of a target and the exposure times are often very limited --


Better ammo is hard to quantify in that respect - as when one looks at newer 5.56mm projectiles, they are more accurate than the SS109/C77/M855 bullet and more terminally effective due to the construction, but the production isn't affected.

The Colt Canada C8/C7 barrel is SubMoA capable already even with the 5.56mm Carbine chamber.




The bigger thing that IMHO the CA should be looking at is, with a suppressor, does the 11.5" C8CQB offer better gun handling in confines expected on the battlefield than the 14.5" or 16" C8 barrel lengths (which I think is a pretty obvious yes).


There have been a bunch of 5.56mm ammunition improvements made recently that should be of interest to DLR folks in Canada -

I know guys who spend thousands on a rifle and scope but no time at the range and it shows.

I just came back from Nova Tactical, zeroing in my new Martini Enfield and AIA Enfield.

Sadly the Martini had to stay behind with the smithy. It's keyholing, need him to give me some options. I'm thinking about barreling it to .410.

 

[Fabius]

I relooked at the presentation more closely. It’s actually broken out into three elements.
They are looking at different precision requirements for the CMAR Sharp Shooter, CMAR Fighting Echelon and CMAR General Service.

CMAR SS is aiming at 1 MOA
CMAR FS is aiming at 2 MOA
CMAR GS is aiming at 3 MOA

 

[KevinB]

I relooked at the presentation more closely. It’s actually broken out into three elements.
They are looking at different precision requirements for the CMAR Sharp Shooter, CMAR Fighting Echelon and CMAR General Service.

CMAR SS is aiming at 1 MOA
CMAR FS is aiming at 2 MOA
CMAR GS is aiming at 3 MOA

Relatively 1.5MOA is still within a chest @ 800m (and long as windage and elevation are correctly applied) and the nut behind the bolt does their thing correctly.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I know guys who spend thousands on a rifle and scope but no time at the range and it shows.

I just came back from Nova Tactical, zeroing in my new Martini Enfield and AIA Enfield.

Sadly the Martini had to stay behind with the smithy. It's keyholing, need him to give me some options. I'm thinking about barreling it to .410.

If your going to rebarrel, look at some of the old cartridges. I have 5. One each of .577/450, one in .303 British, a 45/70 and a 45/90. All shooters. I also have a nice top of the line BSA Martini Centurion in .22LR.

I would look at just a rebarrel in .303, otherwise you're also talking modifying the extractor. A No 1 MkIII SMLE barrel will screw right on, same thread. You may have to cut the chamber deeper or put a spacer between the breech and barrel though. That is your least expensive option. Whatever option you choose, you'll need to cut the breech face of the barrel for the extractor.

 

[Halifax Tar]

If your going to rebarrel, look at some of the old cartridges. I have 5. One each of .577/450, one in .303 British, a 45/70 and a 45/90. All shooters. I also have a nice top of the line BSA Martini Centurion in .22LR.

I would look at just a rebarrel in .303, otherwise you're also talking modifying the extractor. A No 1 MkIII SMLE barrel will screw right on, same thread. You may have to cut the chamber deeper or put a spacer between the breech and barrel though. That is your least expensive option. Whatever option you choose, you'll need to cut the breech face of the barrel for the extractor.

I have an Enfield in 45/70 already. And the old .577/450 just doesn't interest me. Because of it being unobtainium.

.303Br or 410 will probably be my choice. I inherited a metric butt load of 410 ammo, and I do love me some small game.

It with the smithy now. Asked him to give me options. Will keep you posted.

 

[KevinB]

I relooked at the presentation more closely. It’s actually broken out into three elements.
They are looking at different precision requirements for the CMAR Sharp Shooter, CMAR Fighting Echelon and CMAR General Service.

CMAR SS is aiming at 1 MOA
CMAR FS is aiming at 2 MOA
CMAR GS is aiming at 3 MOA

Any more data on those systems -- I would assume a relatively common lower and three different uppers? Which sounds like the original SPR requirement from SOCOM Pre-9/11

 

[Fabius]

There was not a great deal of detail. It did seem like the only real difference was in barrel length.
The CMAR FS is supposed to be a 11.5 inch barrel, GS was 16 inches.
Not sure if the Sharpshooter had a definite barrel length, I will have to relook.
Interestingly the CMAR SS and FS were supposed to both have inline thermal along with suppressors.

 

[PrairieFella]

There was not a great deal of detail. It did seem like the only real difference was in barrel length.
The CMAR FS is supposed to be a 11.5 inch barrel, GS was 16 inches.
Not sure if the Sharpshooter had a definite barrel length, I will have to relook.
Interestingly the CMAR SS and FS were supposed to both have inline thermal along with suppressors.

I hope above all hope that the SS finds its way into the hands of the normal troops. Every section in the infantry and every troop in the other combat arms should have at least one.

 

[brihard]

There was not a great deal of detail. It did seem like the only real difference was in barrel length.
The CMAR FS is supposed to be a 11.5 inch barrel, GS was 16 inches.
Not sure if the Sharpshooter had a definite barrel length, I will have to relook.
Interestingly the CMAR SS and FS were supposed to both have inline thermal along with suppressors.

11.5? Are they gonna put cans on them?

 

[KevinB]

11.5? Are they gonna put cans on them?

All the briefs from Canada I have seen have suppressors on them.
About the only concrete aspect that has come across.

 

[PrairieFella]

From everyone's favourite Canadian milsubstacker, Noah Gairn (and probably our only one).

To the two people who ask me about CMAR, I can happily report that recent tests puts the effective range off the Full-Spctrum (14.5”) variant out to 500m. I thought you would like to know.

Initial price tag estimates to equip both the Regular and Reserves, along with new optics, is currently sitting at around $700 million, give or take. I would expect to see it fully funded.

My personal question about CMAR is what the grenadier situation will be, I doubt M203 will fit, maybe the new Colt Canada EAGLE sideloading GL?

 

[KevinB]

My personal question about CMAR is what the grenadier situation will be, I doubt M203 will fit, maybe the new Colt Canada EAGLE sideloading GL?

Use the M203 as a stand alone...
The CAF M203A1 mount is a fucking travesty - heavier and sits lower than the US one - and honestly, you don't want to add a 5 lb weight to a rifle or carbine - it makes shooting the carbine more awkward, as well as nigh impossible to mount a decent grenade launcher sight.
Plus in the event of a casualty to the grenadier - you want to be able to take the GL, and bandolier and continue the fight -- not have to take their rifle/carbine too.

FWIW - the Eagle is not new, Colt has been trying and failing to sell that for years.

 

[PrairieFella]

Use the M203 as a stand alone...
The CAF M203A1 mount is a fucking travesty - heavier and sits lower than the US one - and honestly, you don't want to add a 5 lb weight to a rifle or carbine - it makes shooting the carbine more awkward, as well as nigh impossible to mount a decent grenade launcher sight.
Plus in the event of a casualty to the grenadier - you want to be able to take the GL, and bandolier and continue the fight -- not have to take their rifle/carbine too.

FWIW - the Eagle is not new, Colt has been trying and failing to sell that for years.

Good thing the Eagle can be fired standalone then lol. Beyond the M320, pretty limited options, especially since the 320 is American, I doubt it gets a sniff these days.

 

[KevinB]

I hope above all hope that the SS finds its way into the hands of the normal troops. Every section in the infantry and every troop in the other combat arms should have at least one.

I missed this one earlier. Honestly a 14.5 or 16" barrel C8 with a free float fore-end (can't say rail anymore), decent rigger and optic is good enough for any DMR usage at the Section/Squad Level - you can get 500m+ semi-precision with it, and it doesn't look out of place visually, like an 18" or 20" rifle does - plus you can still work in confined spaces with it.

I'm partial to 7.62x51mm NATO or 6.5Creedmore for a DMR (in a 14.5" barrel as I think 800m is all you need at that level) as it gives extra barrier penetration - but it does complicate logistics as you introduce another caliber at the section level - that isn't always ideal.

 

[PrairieFella]

I missed this one earlier. Honestly a 14.5 or 16" barrel C8 with a free float fore-end (can't say rail anymore), decent rigger and optic is good enough for any DMR usage at the Section/Squad Level - you can get 500m+ semi-precision with it, and it doesn't look out of place visually, like an 18" or 20" rifle does - plus you can still work in confined spaces with it.

I'm partial to 7.62x51mm NATO or 6.5Creedmore for a DMR (in a 14.5" barrel as I think 800m is all you need at that level) as it gives extra barrier penetration - but it does complicate logistics as you introduce another caliber at the section level - that isn't always ideal.

It's a good point. If they end up going with a variable zoom sight you don't really need a marksman anymore anyways.

 

[dapaterson]

Every time you introduce a different weapon within a section, you designate a target for the enemy.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Every time you introduce a different weapon within a section, you designate a target for the enemy.

Memories of having to carry a Bren gun 'like a rifle' for hours and hours across country...

 

[PrairieFella]

Memories of having to carry a Bren gun 'like a rifle' for hours and hours across country...

Jeez,you are old.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Jeez,you are old.

The L4 version was in service until the mid-90s, I believe. A nice bit of kit, but a bugger to carry with the 'butt in the shoulder'

 

[KevinB]

Every time you introduce a different weapon within a section, you designate a target for the enemy.

Nah the glow stick I attached to the Platoon Commander’s helmet draws all the fire