CANSOFCOM Search and Rescue?

[Journeyman]

This thread was started in Air Force/Why no CF Air Power for A-Stan?  I pre-emptively moved/re-titled it here

Does anyone think that our inability to provide our Airmen a proper Combat Search and Rescue response factors into this at all?

No.

I would include SAR within the aviation portion of CANSOFCOM. The SOF world thrives on being able to go to a full "toolbox" when considering various courses of action. The capabilities SAR Techs bring to the table may prove valuable; trying to incorporate any new elements during a crunch is not the way to go.

Going full CSAR (a la USAF Combat Rescue), requires a change of mindset beyond the present Canadian Air Force's willingness....not to mention the equipment bill. Any SAR employment I can envision within a CANSOFCOM role would therefore likely require the full package of support (Lt Inf, intelligence, CAS, etc). Such support would already be resident within the Command, minus CAS. If SAR was included within the ORBAT, familiarity and common SOPs could eliminate glitches before rounds started impacting on the position.

 

[kj_gully]

While not particularily interested in going back into harm's way, I would tentatively suggest that the SAR Capability, even as it exists today, is CANSOFCOM worthy, just as NBCD is included. We provide an unique ( sounds weird, an unique... wish I knew English) service within the military context. Don't spaz, killers, I am not suggesting we are anywhere near as "special" as youall want to be, I am saying that in "Generaleze" we could fall into the the slot of  a speciallized unit providing a specific skillset for the Canadian Forces.

 

[Chimo]

Gully makes a good point. I have often wondered why our SAR is so civilian role focused. In Canada, I think this should fall under another agency as it is not strictly a Defence role. I see SAR as having a role in any operation where we deploy air assets. Not only is it a safe guard of valuable personnel, IE pilots and SF Operators, it has huge moral factor when soldiers in deep trouble know someone is coming to get them and soon. Perhaps we can tie into other coalition assets that do similar ops.

It is another tool in the tool box that needs to be explored and include. I think we need to do some contemplation and get over the old way of thinking about, the Army does this and we can do it alone. We can but we have much more capability when we operate as members of combined, joint and or coalition forces and teams.

 

[3rd Herd]

Going full CSAR (a la USAF Combat Rescue), requires a change of mindset beyond the present Canadian Air Force's willingness....not to mention the equipment bill. Any SAR employment I can envision within a CANSOFCOM role would therefore likely require the full package of support (Lt Inf, intelligence, CAS, etc). Such support would already be resident within the Command, minus CAS.

I remember through all the grey fog that was one of the exercise scenario's in RV 81. It was a light inf. company minus force, Helli inserted with A 10's for CAS, extra medics, a forward air controller( I believe the mortar plt. O filled this role). A couple of extra inf. sigs types(myself). There was additionally if I remember correctly the adjusting of the weaponry composition to included more automatic weapons ie. GPMGs and C 2's. The ground training and actual Helli assaults took place over three or four days rotating all platoons through the scenario. Justification for the scenario was the increase in SAM and ZSU coverage by our then enemies. Three of the platoon commanders were all recent Ranger qualified and to my knowledge are all at rather lofty levels in the CF today. So somewhere in the archivies sits the data on our trial experiment.

 

[Armymedic]

Sounds like a good plan, but would it be easier to train already qualified tactical medics of CSOR up to a Combat Search and Rescue (CSR) then it would be to bringing an extremely important national asset such as yourselves to the dangers of CSR?

Reason I suggest this is that the CSOR medics will have jump, rappel, mountain, and tactical skills in addition to similar medical skills as SAR TECHS, and more practiced working within the SOF team.

Don't get me wrong, I think SAR TECHs can do it, but I think the role you play now is too important to shift.

Either way, it may be an area to get into, that is, if there is a need.

 

[kj_gully]

Armymedic, you put out good stuff. The reason we ( the guys around the donuts in the SAR shop) are paying any attention to this at all is because after the first Gulf War, Canada's Air Marshall decided that we needed some SERE in our mix. The Airforce dedicated 3 ( well there's three now, might have been more) "Combat Support Squadrons" to fighter command. In those sqns is a 4 person SARtech section, who's role was to be CSAR, but has devolved down to coverage @ home, and straight day shift. There has always been an undercurrent that if Canada ever got serious, that Sartechs would become PJ's
( USAF ParaRescue), and go into battle with orange CADPAT. Some of us look forward to that, but many would gladly give that responsibility to just about anyone.

 

[Good2Golf]

Armymedic, you put out good stuff. The reason we ( the guys around the donuts in the SAR shop) are paying any attention to this at all is because after the first Gulf War, Canada's Air Marshall decided that we needed some SERE in our mix. The Airforce dedicated 3 ( well there's three now, might have been more) "Combat Support Squadrons" to fighter command. In those sqns is a 4 person SARtech section, who's role was to be CSAR, but has devolved down to coverage @ home, and straight day shift. There has always been an undercurrent that if Canada ever got serious, that Sartechs would become PJ's
( USAF ParaRescue), and go into battle with orange CADPAT. Some of us look forward to that, but many would gladly give that responsibility to just about anyone.

kj_gully,

Firstly, SERE (survival, evasion, resistance, escape) are skills that all deployed aircrew should have when operating in the presence of a threat force in deployed theatres.  The establishment of the SERE training requirements was in no way connected to the Combat Support Squadrons.  Interestingly, the CSS were almost (and would have been more accurately) named CSSS - Combat Service Support Squadrons, as they perform supportive functions in the classical Army "Combat < Combat Support < Combat Service Support" hierarchy of forces.  In the end (1996/1997), this was considered "too Army" by many in AIRCOM and the three squadrons were deemed to be "Combat Support" squadrons. 

I cannot agree with your comments about SAR Techs and the plans to be a CSAR section...this is not the case.  I can tell you that there was no intent for the CSS SAR Techs to be anything other than more SAR Tech PY's in the National SAR pool, placed at the three CSS to augment the NSP (National SAR Program's) capability.  I was the guy who worked the establishment (PY) issues for then BGen Pennie in 10 TAG HQ when the CSS (417/439/444) units stood up, and was intimately involved with the manning issues going on between 10 TAG, AIRCOM and FG (as SAR Tech PY's came from 10 TAG's PY envelope to augment the BRF (base rescue flights) at Cold Lake, Bagotville and Goose Bay...BRF Moose Jaw was closed)  There was absolutely not intention on the part of the Air Force to make the 12 SAR Tech PY's into "CSAR" PJ's...at any time in the past.  I would have to check with Director of Air Strategic Planning to see if there is any consideration currently to removing the SAR Techs from the CSS squadrons and transferring PY's to CANSOFCOM to pursue PJ-like capabilities -- I suspect not.

Given that National SAR is conducted by the CF and not the CGC, SAR Techs are a CF National SAR personnel asset and will only ever work Nationally (as Canada does not conduct Deployed SAR (DSAR)). 

As Armymedic very correctly states, CSAR is a combat recovery task, along with Combat Recovery and SF Ops, consistent with our CF and NATO Doctrine -- from the NATO Joint Warfare Pub. JWP 3-66  Joint Personnel Recovery:

Who would conduct CSAR para if Canada undertook that specific element of CSAR, let alone CSAR on the whole?  I don't know, but I would  be willing to bet that CSAR "PJs", jumping under "black silk", would be part of CANSOFCOM and inserted/extracted from deployed elements of 427 SOAR and the Tac Air Transport (TAT) world.  They would no doubt need very robust medical skills, but also as Armymedic points out, a very strong repertoire of combat skills.

Duey

 

[kj_gully]

Well Duey, sounds like you have your finger on the pulse of Canadian Aviation, and may have had for some time. You have trumped me. My story is oral history passed from SAr tech to SAR tech from time immemorial. Perhaps we have as a group have taken 1, added 1, and come up with three. Being posted into CSSS,our Airforces relegation to shooting @ dhows with aa missles in GW1, getting instructor billets @ the SERE school (which we hate), Canadian officesrs handcuffed to lightpoles in Jugoslavia now freefalling with equipment, has led to an erroneous assumption that there was a "conspiracy" to draft SAR into battle. All I know is that Somebody should do it. It won't be much fun for you flying low and slow over sand berms without it.I know the coalition will get you, but if we don't send a couple guys into the CSAR company, or battalion or whatever, then we aren't fully invested partners, just dependants.

 

[Good2Golf]

Fully agree, kj_gully!

I think it's not only something we could do, but should be doing when we get our aviation over here...being worked on as we speak, no timing as of yet.  Of course, we can't contribute "all the pieces" to CSAR, but all the pieces are certainly here in theatre.  Per the JWP 33-6, we would more likely be conducting CR (Combat Rescue) where you know where the individual or group of soldiers is, vice CSAR having to go out and rescue someone where the positions is not quite known (CSAR), but in any case, the selection, skill set and training for a CSAR/CR "PJ" equivalent will be demanding, as it should be...sort of a "CADPAT SARTech(+)" kind of a soldier.

Hopefully I'll see this before I am relegated off to some cubicle in Winniper or Ottawa...huah!

Cheers,
Duey

 

[3rd Herd]

Duey, Jm
Just a thought from left field but are not a lot of the SAR Techs ex infantry. Mind you I am partly basing this on old memory and the last couple of times I was in Comox there sure were allot of familiar faces. So to a certain extent personal are already cbt arms qualified. So maybe the idea of a CadPat SAR Tech all ready exists.

 

[Good2Golf]

3H, I believe you're right, but I haven't worked in SAR so I don't know what proportion of them are previous 031'ers.  I don't think it would take much for either a SAR tech or a jumper medic or a similarly qualified soldier to make a good PJ/CSAR Tech/etc...

Cheers,
Duey 

 

[kj_gully]

3H, Although probably 75% of us are ex combat arms, and all have taken a rigourous course of training similar to an elite unit, the jump to Combat would require a complete reengineering of the "Airforce" training set. We are employed in a manner so paramilitary, it sometimes feels that we aren't in the military at all. Think about it, what other unit in the Forces has no war fighting role? I mean even the PERI staff and bandsmen were designated as stretcher bearers. We do our Roe every year 9well almost every year) we never fire the C7 ( although we got a kick as@ 30-06 about 2 1/2 ft long) and our cadpat is on the floor @ the back of one of our lockers... somewhere. Most of us remember something about the Army, like pt @0 dark buffalo, and other great reasons to be Airforce. I'm sure that if and when this imaginary role comes to life, there will be some SAR tech involvement, but it may turn into a type of employment like the current JTF, where troops would be "seconded" to this sub specialty along with medics? just my 2 cents

 

[JANES]

To look at this realistically, which is kind of hard to do, a completely new trade would have to be created, with it's own selection process, it's own course, and it's own structure and custom placement in the orbat.  To say let's take a SAR Tech or a Med Tech and give him the job is a bit naive.  Who's going to teach the new course, CFSSAR?  Do they have the capacity, the ability or the expertise for that?  For starters, the SAR Tech trade can't afford to take on any new responsibilities, as their trade is red and they are hurting for bodies.  Regardless of whether they are ex-combat arms or not, they are not trained in current TT&P's or qualified any weapons.  For most is has been quite along time since cam paint touched their face, though some will argue it will come back quickly, maybe so, but then that just gives you an advatage in the selection process, not a free ticket for the job.  With regards to Med Tech's it's a similiar issue.  They are not formally taught small unit infantry TT&P's, mountaineering or parachuting to the same level as a SAR Tech, for example.  And whether they all have that special training or not, everything changes in a tactical environment.  Tactical mountaineering is different than overt mountain climbing and rescue's, TCCC is different than how the JI teach the SAR Techs to treat patients, though the Med Tech's are slowly coming on board with this, standardized training is being developed.  And though the SAR Tech's do this in training now (not sure why or how this increases their operational capability...I thought it would be more advantageous to be able to jump lower, not higher, but thats a whole other thread) but freefalling with equipment, and utilizing static line round chutes (for combat and low ceiling conditions, 600ft, lower?) is different than the SAR Tech way of doing business.  Now before everybody gets their feathers in a ruffle, I know their will be SAR Tech's and Med Techs that would make very good CDN "PJ's", we'll call it for lack of a better term.  But to change hats and say you're now a CSOR PJ I don't think is the answer.  You'll be thrust into a job way over your head.  Extra training will have to take place, and who is going to do that?  To limit the "new trade" to Med Techs or SAR Techs is keeping your pool to draw from way to small, and not allowing other potentials who are infantry or cooks to attempt to become one.  What it will do for you,( being a SAR Tech or Med Tech) is prepare you a little better for going on their selection, and their course.  Sound familiar?  Everybody wants a free ticket in, but this program needs to start from scratch, and instead of looking to the SAR Techs as a model, needs to look to the US PJ's.  Those are the guys that do this business for real (I mean in a tactical theatre).  I guess it would be like to seethe PSO saying to the troops ok you've got a choice, you can apply for CSOR, JTF, SAR Tech, or "PJ".  All are drawn from the ranks (all trades) and all have a selection process and distinct course, though some longer than others.  I guess thats my two pennies.

 

[kj_gully]

Great post, i agree with everything. i guess why i picked SAR techs & medics is because you can teach any dummy to do everything else real quick, but medical is a serious brain squeeze, and should not be rushed, and my guess is this, this imaginary capability if ever, will be rushed. Like, OK we got new choppers, lets fly troops around Astan, oh wait... we need to provide some SAR capability? Lets grab some SARtechs, they work with PJs, right? Not enough of 'em, and/or they're too scared? Army medics then. They follow orders better anyway. Only in writing, with command letterhead and both official languages.

 

[Journeyman]

....but medical is a serious brain squeeze, and should not be rushed

I couldn't agree more. Even when not rushed, the SAR medical phase burnt people out. As a generalization (reasonably accurate nonetheless), we lost most of the navy and airforce students in the first week, when they realized the PT involved more than just sitting around talking about fitness. We lost combat arms guys during the medical phase though, just because it involved teaching methods, skills, and requirements that were more intellectually challenging than we'd come to expect.

 

[JANES]

This is where CANSOF generally is a little more realistic and switched on compared to the rest of the CF.  Instead of taking the applicants, shoving the JI's PCP firehose into their mouth and turing it on full blast, i.e trying to cram 6 months of training down their neck in 3 months because it saves money (I heard the only reason the JI got the contract was because every other organization said it's impossible to effectively teach that info in such a short time and they won't do it, somebody please start a JI thread I have some stuff to get off my chest), what little ol' me would recommend is to do it the proper way and teach a customized course (because really, the "PJ's" environment is going to be a just a little bit different than riding around the back of an ambulance downtown Canada) over a longer period of time.  On car time with TEMS paramedics (in Ottawa or Toronto, they do normal calls too), hospital time, OEMS as an annual currency, and real tactical casualty field scenarios.  Yes it will take some time, but it produces quality medical providers and will not washout those that can learn it, just not at the firehose rate.  It's better to take your time and get a grasp of the info, instead of cramming and dumping.

I realize this would all be a looooooong drawn out process.  This whole idea is a fantacy right now.  The reality of it is, is that we are and will be for a while, relying on the US for this service.  There is no way that any CDN Brass will say "holy crud, we need a PJ capability today, quick tell a SAR Tech to dig out his CADPAT."  Wishful thinking. 

 

[kj_gully]

Just to be clear, I don't wish it, on anybody. Its just a murmur i hear in the background, when I'm caught without my tinfoil cap.... I guess I am trying to provoke some thought by others on the reality, before CFMG, 1 cdn air div or whoever starts thinking "we'",  or "us" can start doing this next roto, or the one after, or whenever.

 

[HItorMiss]

Just a thought but what about sending volunteers to the US SF medic course? Seems like a very competent combat Medic course from the info I have gleamed in fact it's considered top notch even by Civy Doctors.

You guys are the experts you tell me what you think?

 

[kj_gully]

Might as well just send them to PJ school, that's what they're gunna need.

 

[JANES]

Agreed, PJ school would be better.  A lot of the components already exist in our military, they would just have to add some of the phases.  Now that I think about it, it wouldn't be that big of a step.  Basic para, MFP, customized ships team diver, SMOC (mtn, note not AMO/MOI), the new CSOR Cat 1 course, HAI, customized paramedic course to include tccc, OEMS, air crew OJT, SERE, Sea and Arctic Survival, what am I missing?  Now that I look at it, not a huge step to teach it, but dedicating resources to maintain a capability is another issue altogether.

The US SF 18D Course is a little over a year long, and pretty expensive.  Foreign Nationals are allowed on it, and do take it.  Apparently an amazing course.  They even learn dentistry and veterinarian medicine.  But theres no way Canada would  invest that much into one person.  I'm not saying they shouldn't.  Every medic should go on it, but realistically it won't happen (outside of CANSOF).  Also, The course really focuses on sustained care, setting up clinics for indiginous pers, like I said vet, dent med, things like that.  A PJ doesn't really need, nor do they train in patrol and clinical medicine.  Their requirement is generally strictly emergency care, and then usually trauma.