CANSOFCOM Search and Rescue?

[Journeyman]

... I just don't want anyone thrust into it last minute and half assed like usual.

And THAT, is the rationale behind the thread. Now, is there the political will (writ large, to include government and Air Force/CANSOFCOM) to consider these options? While transformation has created several other beasts I would not have imagined 3-5 years ago, I don't think this one wil fly. The key stumbling block is the absence of someone, sufficiently high-ranked, to take ownership of this in order to shepherd it through the inevitable bureaucratic tar sands.

 

[HItorMiss]

Well allot can be said for pushing this topic onto your C of C in your units....or even risk stepping on your peepee and say oh emailing a link to this discussion direct to someone who might risk themselves to put it out there, I'm sure everyone here knows someone that fits that bill..

If not I could think of one or 2 the Capt to I think Lt Col rank.

But I am outside my lane as as such will now go back to lurking and see where this is going, Heck I might someday need a SAR PJ and I would love for it to in place the day I do.

 

[Good2Golf]

JANES:  Tac Hel has only 60 more pilots than you have SAR Techs and that's providing Tier 1 DOM CT-HR stby 24/7/365, TUAV's in Afghanistan and support to Army and other CF elems across the Country, and that doesn't include folks whom I strongly believe will be back here flying in K-har in a years time...I'm counting on it, and personally told the CDS I'd walk my 12-month op waiver form up to his office to have him let me come back here with my choppers -- he told me, "I'd sign that in a heartbeat for you!"  [aside: dang! you gotta love the guy!].  Like I said earlier, SAR Techs don't hold a monopoly on difficult manning issues.  I also wouldn't expect this to happen overnight. It's taken us almost a decade to melt down to where we are now -- it certainly would be naive to think capability rebuild and further development will happen overnight.

Journeyman:  Absolutely, last-minute half-arsing would be my greatest fear too.  Sadly, I've seen it when the Air Force realized all its big talk about doing UAV's instead of the Army was a huge task and the light blue AF folks dumped it on Tac Hel, which is doing it, but not without the bitter pill that it agreed with the Army that TUAV and lower should entirely be done by soldiers...properly trained, but soldiers nonetheless!  Hopefully if this did happen, in order to fill an extant op reqr, it would not be done at the last minute!

Gully:  Don't get me wrong, brother...I'd love your help if I really needed it, but I'm kind of planning on borrowing my 160th brethren's motto "We own the night" and not getting my behind plinked.  Well, perhaps plinked, but certainly not enough to force me to walk home!    As someone who will potentially involved in supporting OOA caps that don't exist now, nothing would make me happier than having some IR/BLACKPAT-wearing, gun-toting  :threat:, arse-kicking, life-saving CAN PJs from the CANSOFCOM machine strap themselves in behind me for a spin around the block when I come back here next!!!

Time to re-read my copy of the JWP 3-66 NATO PR manual and hone up on doctrine and TTP's...  ;D

Cheers,
Duey

 

[SeaKingTacco]

1 It's been pointed out elsewhere that I have "career attention deficit disorder"; every few years, I get bored and remuster/reclassify   

Funny... I have been accused of exactly the same thing 

I'm following this thread with interest.  As many of you are aware, we are currently converting 5 Sea Kings to troop lifters.  This adds a "tac-hel" role to our already overflowing "missions basket", which already contains ASW, ASUW, SAR and Utility work.

The point many have made about "half-arsing" things rings loudly in my ears.  I'm looking forward to meeting my 1 Wing Brethen at the Combat Helicopter Symposium at the end of the month and discussing CSAR and many other issues.

Duey- are you going to be there?  I would dearly like to pick your brains for a couple of days...

Cheers

 

[Good2Golf]

SKT, unfortunately I cannot come to the conference unless I travel on my own coin, while on my disembarkation leave. :'(  DDIOs/CFAOs won't allow it....I've got a total of 38 work days [two months!] of leave to incinerate when I hit the tarmac in the near future. :  (seems there's still a bit of a way to go for all bits of the puzzle to fit in the transformation game...)

Instead, I'll have to stare at my flight-suit hanging in the front hallway, make wokka-wokka noises to myself, and tile my kitchen floor while the leave clock ticks down...tick...tick...tick....frick, I can already see the Type-A in me going bonkers after day 2 or 3!  ;D

Print out this thread and tackle MGen Bouchard at the YAW Wardroom for me, SKT...heck, tell the CDS about it...sounds like he might even be there....hmmmm

Cheers,
Duey

 

[JANES]

So I'm writing a post in another thread about pre-Afghanistan TCCC training, and I realized something.  TCCC is an absolute requirement.  Guys are getting hurt everyday in the box right now, and they are still reluctant to give them CATs and proper standardized TCCC training, and give the medics an increase in their scope of practice.  They are moving as slow as molasis on this and it is an absolute requirement right this second.  And you guys honestly think that with as slow as they are moving on that issue with it's definite requirement, that they are going to hastily grab SAR Tech's and give them a combat role, when the need is not nearly as great as the requirement for TCCC training, kit etc?  I'm not saying there is no requirement.  I'm just saying not nearly as desperate.  They are not going to move on this very fast at all!  I hope this puts it in perspective.  In the meantime, if the US PJ's are so over burdened, CDN SOF is going to do the job.  I think that goes without saying.

 

[Good2Golf]

Am I missing something JANES?  Who hasn't done TCCC?  I've done it over here and it was one of the best, most applicable courses I've done in the CF!

Duey

 

[JANES]

You are missing something.  Read the TCCC thread and the Care for cas in Afghanistan thread.  There is no standardization to the training.  The training is a free for all.  Theres no dout it's good, but no two training sessions are the same, and it's all on the Unit Commanders initiative.  Yet St. Johns is still mandatory.  Unbelievable!  It's been almost 3 years since this was introduced to the Army and they haven't taken it seriously at high levels or else they would have dedicated resources to implimenting it right away.  Everything is being done at very low levels, sometimes supported by CO's.  Were you issued a CAT?  Has everyone in theater been issued a CAT?  This is off topic.  Yes you're missing something. 

 

[Zoomie]

While we're on the CANSOF-PJ topic - let me throw my fixed-wing ideas into the melee...

Let's revert the CC-115 back to its original role - tactical transporter.  Paint it flat black (to match Duey's counter-rotating beast) and install new NVG compliant avionics, RADAR, FLIR pod, weapon's blisters in place of SAR windows and strip out the SAR racks so that we start carrying vehicles again.  PJ's can be quickly para-inserted with the helo conducting the hairy recovery.  The inside of the Buff is identical in dimensions to that of the Hook - palletized loads can be easily swapped and not require a re-pack in the event of a mission change.

The Buffalo is built with plenty of redundancies in its systems - the inner fuel tanks are self sealing (in case of bullets or shrapnel) and its ability to land on any stretch of real-estate is world reknown.

There's my pitch...  8)

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Would the airframe be able to take being in service longer in its new role?

 

[JANES]

The US are using the Herc refuelers right now for a PJ fixed wing platform.  They have a fuel pod on the inside of the herc, but it is to one side so it only takes up half the space.  The PJ kit is stored in the remainder of the space.  This allows the a/c to have a dual role.  They refuel the helos and insert the PJ's prn.  Your thoughts on the Buff are interesting.  I wonder if the fact that it can't pressurize (limiting altitude) and is very slow may make it too vulnerable?  Do we have enough to convert, or are they maxed out keeping them maintained to keep a domestic SAR capability?

 

[Rigger]

Zoomie
It is actually the 5 inner cells on the outer tank that are self sealing. The Buff would work great over there, with it's superb austere field capabilities. The airframe is very forgiving, it is the engines and avionics that cause us the most grief. Those can be upgraded relatively easily. Unfortunately with only 6 Buffs left I think it would be impossible to support west coast SAR/OTF and an overseas commitment at the same time. Not to mention the Sqn does not have the aircrew, techs, and spare parts to man both. To bad I would also like to see the Buff used for its intended purpose

 

[Good2Golf]

Ryan, there's some out of the box thinking and I love it!  Bring FWSAR online, whenever, and bring the Buff over here...it would be excellent also for tac resupply and would be awesome in the mountains.  I'll have to mention that to a guest who'll dropping by sometime in the near future.  As with everything, I think manning would be the biggest problem, followed by TTPs...can TAT TTPs be modified for that emplyment, you think?

Cheers,
Duey

 

[kj_gully]

JANES, ol' buddy, the half as*ed TC3 going on is exactly why I fear that the CSAR role will be equally half as*ed. Nothing will be done until way to late, haphazardly, and somebody in A Navy Uniform doing the staff work on the program is going to think that SARtechs ( insert any other specialist of your choice in here)"should" be able to take care of that, and , the Command will say "yep we can take care of that" and poof, last minute and half assed, here both the Canadian PJs (the only 2) hanging out in 1 of our 3 servicable hercs that is doing air to air refuelling along with mail runs and leave flights.

 

[Zoomie]

It is actually the 5 inner cells on the outer tank that are self sealing.

Thanks - I was just generalizing all the fuel cells between the fuselage and the engines as one fuel cell. 

There is zero chance of this idea coming to fruition with the current fleet assignments - Solution:  like Duey said, stand up the FWSAR program pronto - get us new planes; and position 2-3 Buffs in Kandahar (after being suitably updated).  Provide 3 complete crews.  Rotate these crews as necessary to allow for dom-Ops training and OTF back home (grass strip in Petawawa could work as home base).

 

[kj_gully]

Am I a total dummy? Why would you use the Buff, as much as I love it, instead of another c27? That would be cool. + that would mean that all the 442 pilots would end up in theater, like that would happen!

 

[Good2Golf]

...a bird in the hand?  I think it's fair to say that all the first C27's would go straight to National SAR...tac C27's would be a long time coming.  Kind of a compromise, like my badly wanting to come back to theatre to fly...I'd love to come here next year in a big, new MH-47G but I'll settle for coming back here in a stock CH146 - C1A1.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[kj_gully]

I don't think that's fair to say at all, in fact FWSAR is back burnered, until they decide if it will suit for a tactical airlifter, as far as I hear it. Ryan, am I on target? We plan on having Buffs in Comox until 2015.

 

[Good2Golf]

Gully, not saying that FWSAR will happen tomorrow but that those aircraft that do show up first will no doubt go to National SAR first.

As to how fast FWSAR happens, I think you're right...that and TALC both seem to have been back-burnered, hence my "pragmatic realist" view (a.k.a. cynic) that I have a better chance of coming back here in the Griffon in the near future, than I do a Chinook.  Sad but true.  Not at the expense of cutting into NSAR cap, but Buff's would, IMO, be a great aircraft until C27 came on line!

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Zoomie]

You're right Gully - the Buff is here for the long run.  What it does mean is that we may see the old birds going in for some badly needed avionics upgrades - this program was initially scrapped back near the turn of the century due to the FWSAR replacement project kicking in high gear.

As it is - any new FWSAR would first replace all the E model Hercs and slowly filter down the line to Comox.  The Buff would be the last aircraft flying SAR of the current fleet.

To answer Ex-Dragoon's question from a while back - the airframe on the Buff has lots of life left in it.  Like RiggerFE mentioned, the engines and avionics are usually the big factor when it comes to serviceability.  Both of these issues can be rectified if needed - unfortunately we could never get pressurization.

You're probably right about the guys upstairs Gully - most of them might not relish the idea of actually flying in the $hit - I'd give it a whirl, just make sure the armour plating is in the right places and arm my crew, good to go!