CEOTP (Continuing Ed Officer Trg Plan) 2003-2018 [Merged]

[aesop081]

Hey maniac779,
I only need encouragement from guys, but I don't really understand what you mean by "...Even if your entire application was squared away, we wouldn't be enrolling you."

I am absolutely free from any decision by Military anyway, tho not sure if you speak for Can military anyway but be sure that there is nothing spoil, I have never put all my hope in the force job anytime. I am doing fine b/f my intention to join, my earning was 2 times what military is offering, but its not about money but a career, what you want to do or be in life, and Canada. Take time to find out that average enrollings are jobless or for more packages, but mine is completely out of thats, its about what I want to be and Canada...

why don't you encourage rather discourage your fellow human. Thanks

What he said was that the program ( CEOTP ) for pilot is CLOSED. That means that the CF is not accepting ANYONE into this specific program. You could have the best application in the world but the CF wold not enroll you as the program is CLOSED at this time.

 

[Loachman]

And that was it - a blunt statement of fact.

I am amazed that people today are willing to wait seemingly endlessly for applications to be processed, and for courses once they're in. I can fully sympathize with how discouraging this must be, and I admire their patience. I also appreciate how wasteful this is to the CF, and to those people hanging on. Things were much quicker when I applied, and I do not know if I could have stuck out being in limbo as long as many have.

Keep politely enquiring at your recruiting centre, Dejo - not so much as to be annoying, but enough to let them know that you are interested and keen. Even if CEOTP is still closed, at least keep asking about your clearance.

In the meantime, furthering your education may well help.

I also appreciate that English is not your first language, and I will willingly admit that I am abominable in any other language other than my own, but brushing up on written English would also be of great benefit to you in the CF, especially as an officer. This is meant as a helpful tip and not as criticism. You are perfectly understandable as you are - it's a matter of "polish".

Good luck to you.

 

[acheo]

Don't give up Dejo. I can feel your frustration as I experienced the same when I joined.  Seems like the military has a lot to learn about human ressources but that's another topic.

Keep studying or polishing your skills and get involved in your community. If the military does not acknowledge your value, some other will.

By the way you are much better in English that I will ever be and it doesn't keep me from flying.

Good luck!

 

[Loachman]

Seems like the military has a lot to learn about human ressources but that's another topic.

It's not a learning problem - it's the state that we've fallen into after being forced to pay people to leave in the early nineties, prevented from recruiting for over a decade, and being simultaneously underfunded and overtasked throughout.

This has left a huge experience gap, and few to replace those who have been hitting retirement age for the last several years and who will continue to do so for the next several.

We could recruit hundreds of thousands, but without enough experienced officers and NCOs who should have been joining and developing during the Dark Years, they are not going to be trained quickly enough.

It didn't used to be this bad, and it'll be a while before it gets better.

 

[hauger]

I contacted CSIS<intelligence agancy> about the clearance and the agency said, my employer did not submit any request to do check on me, I got highly frustrated and contact Production officer, recruitment Ottawa about a surprise from csis. He said its a Dep Provost Marshall thats in charge of my security clearance.

I'm pretty sure the initial Reliability clearance is done without the use of CSIS...that CSIS provideds the government Level I,II,or III clearance after the fact.  The reasoning I think is that CSIS charges good money, and the cost is prohibitive to run CSIS clearances on each and every applicant.

Give it time my man...any non-standard background causes the clearance system to run at the speed of smell.  Keep in mind that these guys run clearances on each and every applicant from across the country, meaning your application is one of tens of thousands that needs to be cleared.  Unfortunately, that means that once it hits the top of the pile, the requests for information are made, then it's shuffled to the bottom of the next pile.  This process continues until eventually it comes to the top of a pile where there's no subsequent pile for it to bottom to.

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

Dejo, I am currently completing the final phase of the Pilot application process through CEOTP. With my ERC in hand, I waited more than one year before I received an ASC date. Then again, I may be on their 'B' list.  ;D

Don't tap out because the wait is longer than you would like. Good luck.

 

[BC Old Guy]

A number of questions raised in this thread.

First - the pre-enrolment security assessment gets handed to CSIS by the CF Security staff.  If there are questions about the information provided, they will be asked down the chain until you are asked the question, and provide the info requested.  You can check with the Recruiting Centre to see if they need additional information from you.

Second - over the past year there were many pilot applications, and very few enrolments.  Since at least Aug 2007 the enrolments were few, and the individuals normally had experience and education that stood out from the other applications.

Third - Yes, CEOTP will open again after April.  However, there are about 3x as many applications as there are jobs, so it will remain a competitive environment for those that wish to become CF pilots. 

Fourth - Pre-enrolment security assessments are only done when the applicant had some out-of-Canada ties - such as employment. 

Those of us in the Recruiting system try to manage the expectations of the people we talk to about employment opportunities - however, we each have a different communication style, which affects how the message is relayed.  As well, changes happen quickly - and priorities change, sometime during the year.  This means that what the recruiter tells you at the beginning of the year may differ significantly from what the same recruiter would tell you in December.  Keep in touch with the Recruiting Centre, amd the process should go a little more smoothly.

 

[zorro]

BC

Just out of curriousity, would a DEO offer be relatively "easier" to attain as opposed to an ROTP or CEOTP offer? I don't ask this specifically of PLT, but of any trade in general?

Thanks.

 

[Elwood]

Just out of curriousity, would a DEO offer be relatively "easier" to attain as opposed to an ROTP or CEOTP offer? I don't ask this specifically of PLT, but of any trade in general?

What I understood from my CFRC is that having a university degree puts you a few points (I have no clue how many) ahead of people applying though CEOTP. I think a DEO's GPA is also concidered in the factor, and higher GPA's can get more points. When things get competetive, a few points more than the other applicant will come in handy.

 

[Meridian]

Hi all,

I'm wondering if there is someone out there in recruiting land that can source the appropriate regulation covering CEOTP commissioning dates and thus the basic pay (and preferably net basic pay for a single mbr) for someone under CEOTP at incentive 0 (with no previous service).

Reason I ask is that I've been given different answers from different recruiters on this, and a DEO friend who is on his PhIV now has a coursemate who is CEOTP who is still an Ocdt,  but on his BOTP had  least 3 CEOTP coursemates commission with him.    Sounds like grievances in the making, but maybe it all makes sense somehow.

The actual commission to me is less important "immediately" (I'd rather earn it through the courses) than the 2LT pay. 

In fairness, I did ask this question in the past, and there was no clear verdict.   

[Edit] The following Instruction is all I can find and is somewhat vague in its use of "basic officer training" and "current promotion policy"

All candidates enrolled in the CEOTP shall hold the rank of OCdt/NCdt until completion of basic officer training, unless initially granted higher rank, Incentive Pay Category, or Time Counting for Promotion in recognition of previous service or training.
Commissioning and promotion shall be in accordance with current CF promotion policy 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/instructions/engraph/0905_admhrmil_e.asp

Any help is much appreciated!

 

[exgunnertdo]

Another point is the degree.  You can't be commissioned until you are granted your degree - maybe the person on Ph IV as an OCdt is still finishing his/her degree?  The degree would certainly fall into "current CF promotion policy."  DEO all have their degrees when they do BOTP, hence the commissioning on graduation.  CEOTP are potentially still in the process of completing degrees, and depending how their program progressed, may be eligible for commissioning at varying times in their program?  Just guessing.

 

[bcrawford]

Thats a logical guess, but according to the documentation on CEOTP, I don't think its the cause the delays in commissioning that Meridian has mentioned.

The new CEOTP retains the CF’s commitment to the degreed officer corps concept, but with one
important difference – officer candidates used to be required to hold a university degree before
they could be commissioned. In October 2005, however, Assistant Deputy Minister (Human
Resources – Military) Vice-Admiral Greg Jarvis announced the creation of the new officer
production plan that allows officer candidates to be commissioned and to train in and be
employed in their military occupations while they earn their degrees.

Source: http://64.254.158.112/pdf/CEOTP_en.pdf

[EDIT: Mar 11 2006] to include source of quoted text

 

[kincanucks]

Another point is the degree.  You can't be commissioned until you are granted your degree - maybe the person on Ph IV as an OCdt is still finishing his/her degree?  The degree would certainly fall into "current CF promotion policy."  DEO all have their degrees when they do BOTP, hence the commissioning on graduation.  CEOTP are potentially still in the process of completing degrees, and depending how their program progressed, may be eligible for commissioning at varying times in their program?  Just guessing.

Having a degree or not has nothing to do with promotion from OCdt to 2Lt to Lt to Capt.

All candidates enrolled in the CEOTP shall hold the rank of OCdt/NCdt until completion of basic officer training, unless initially granted higher rank, Incentive Pay Category, or Time Counting for Promotion in recognition of previous service or training.

Meridian you are right it is slightly vague as to what basic officer training is.  I came up through OCTP(M), which is very similar to CEOTP, promotion to 2Lt and higher occurred upon completion of phase training.  So perhaps the other three have previous service?

 

[PO2FinClk]

Although not completly in my lane of expertise, I believe that exgunnertdo is quite accurate. Reading further in the ref (CMP Instr 09/05) para 5.1 denotes the obligation for CEOTP's to obtain a degree. If you browse to the bottom of the CMP Instr you will see all the applicable refs, although CFAO 11-06 in not clear on this issue. Your enrolment message should also be consulted as it would provide further details into this issue.

What bcrawford mentions could provide you with what you require, however it only mentions that "the creation" of a new plan. It however does not mention if the plan was approved nor can it be found at this point in time. I would summise that it is a work in progress amongst many other change initiatives.

All that I can suggest is to send a request for clarification through your ULO which will then be in a position to staff it accordingly.

 

[kincanucks]

Although not completly in my lane of expertise, I believe that exgunnertdo is quite accurate. Reading further in the ref (CMP Instr 09/05) para 5.1 denotes the obligation for CEOTP's to obtain a degree. If you browse to the bottom of the CMP Instr you will see all the applicable refs, although CFAO 11-06 in not clear on this issue. Your enrolment message should also be consulted as it would provide further details into this issue.

What bcrawford mentions could provide you with what you require, however it only mentions that "the creation" of a new plan. It however does not mention if the plan was approved nor can it be found at this point in time. I would summise that it is a work in progress amongst many other change initiatives.

All that I can suggest is to send a request for clarification through your ULO which will then be in a position to staff it accordingly.

Not arguing that CEOTPs eventually need a degree but you can't tell me that they won't be promoted to 2Lt to Lt to Capt without it.  CEOTPs have a maximum of nine years to get a degree so there is a possibilty they won't get promoted for nine years?

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

Not that it is concrete answer, but I have asked the same question to several 2nd LTs who are currently on SLT or OJT. According to them, "everybody" was promoted to 2nd LT upon completing IAP/BOTP. "Everybody" being those who were entered under CEOTP. Now, just a little disclaimer, I was only in touch with Pilots. I doubt that the occupation should matter, but that is just an opinion.

Good luck - I know you have been hunting this one down for a while now. I'm with you, I am not sure why this is such a grey area. If you need some more info, want to compare notes, or make each other's heads spin on the subject; feel free to send me a PM.

 

[Rowshambow]

My CEOTP message said "promoted to 2Lt upon completion of BOTP, backdated to 30 April 07" and I do not have a degree. You do not need a degree to be promoted (up to Captain) as some others pointed out. The CEOTP program says that you "have to be working towards a degree by the end of your 25 years of service" So it doesn't say you need a degree at all, just work towards one. From what the BPSO told me, was that the CO has the say if you haven't completed it at the end of your contract, he/she can advise to have your contract extended etc.
As for your specific question Meridian, you should check your message, I am sure that's where you might find the answers. Have your clerk go over it with you with a fine tooth comb. Good luck!

 

[benny88]

They've finally put together a decent website for this program, which allows pilots to attend the University of Western Ontario and attain various flying licenses through Empire Aviation here in London. It's a great program, anyone who has further questions can PM me, or post here, there's another CAM student/grad or two floating around.


Commercial Aviation Management website: http://mos.uwo.ca/cam/

CAM and ROTP: http://empireaviation.com/web/index.php/cam/rotp

PDF from the CF recruiting site: http://64.254.158.112/pdf/CAMP_en.pdf




PS for mods- I suppose this could go in Aircrew Trades, but I feel it's more relevant here. Move it if you wish, cheers.

 

[Redeye121]

Yeah first of all thank you for posting this. I found the links to be quite helpful. I have been looking into this program for some time now, but still have a few questions. The program as I have read is sponsored by the CF, which is a bonus. The academic part there, how good is it? I mean this by is it just a useless degree or can you actually apply it to good use say in 20-25 years after one has retired from the CF? My final question is, I am currently in Belgium and will be returning to Canada in 2009. On the Transport Canada site it tells me that there is a doctor in Belgium listed on there. Does that mean that if I went to him I wouldn't need to get another one upon arriving in Canada? I look forward to your response.

Cheers
Red

 

[benny88]

    The degree that grads of this program hold is a BMOS (Business Management and Organizational Studies) which I think is a very good and applicable degree. In addition to standard economics, math, and business courses, you get to take cool stuff like History of Aviation in Canada, Aviation Law, and Airport Urban Planning.
  The program is quite new, so the first graduates are just percolating into the work force now, but from what I hear they are having success. The combo of a Biz degree plus specific aviation industry courses I imagine makes it fairly attractive to civilian aviation employers.
  About your Transport Canada Medical and getting it in Belgium, I wouldn't know. If he's a TransCan certified Doc, I would guess that would be fine, but I recommend calling someone at Transport Canada and asking the question there. Good luck!