CH-146 Griffon

[Spencer100]

so they don't need the Griffon to sustain the factory.

Not in of its self. But it is 100 percent part of the calculus. Here Bell have a no bid upgrade contract. This should help maintain the team. This is why Tranport Canada got the machines they did a few years ago.

Also on government side their ability to even think about running competition to replace the helicopters is zero. So an upgrade of a Canadian made machine is a no brainer.

 

[KevinB]

US Army’s Future Vertical Lift candidate, the Boeing-Sikorsky Defiant X.

Cough I think you meant LocMart

Future Vertical Lift: Revolutionizing Army Aviation

Our X2 Technology™ family of integrated weapon systems are the only aircraft flying today toward a cohesive Future Vertical Lift (FVL) ecosystem.

www.lockheedmartin.com

Like a scaled up Black Hawk on steroids with an awesome counter-rotating blender.

 

[Good2Golf]

Cough I think you meant LocMart

Pshawww.....branding. Funny that while the F-35 program was having some real cost issues, it was Sikorsky paving the way for the future in rotary-wing capability....now it's back to Lockheed. All good, amigo!

 

[KevinB]

Pshawww.....branding. Funny that while the F-35 program was having some real cost issues, it was Sikorsky paving the way for the future in rotary-wing capability....now it's back to Lockheed. All good, amigo!

My wife works for Rotary Missions Systems remember -- I can't get away from LocMart branding...

 

[Good2Golf]

My wife works for Rotary Missions Systems remember -- I can't get away from LocMart branding...

When its more than half the food on the table, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

They lost a bunch of Blackhawks when they first came out, there was a need for modifications as I recall. So it would be good to let the US run the new type for 5 years or so before jumping onboard. Likely such a procurement would also mean sub component contracts for Bell and other companies.

 

[KevinB]

They lost a bunch of Blackhawks when they first came out, there was a need for modifications as I recall. So it would be good to let the US run the new type for 5 years or so before jumping onboard. Likely such a procurement would also mean sub component contracts for Bell and other companies.

Bell is the opposition on FVL.
Their Tilt Rotor V280 is the other entrant to the competition for the UH-60 replacement.

There is nothing for Bell if LocMart wins.

 

[GK .Dundas]

When the first test flight with a full troop load occurred. It went down at night into a forest in Kentucky.
They went out expecting multiple fatalities and serious injuries. They were amazed to find aside from a few aches and pains everybody was just fine .
For that reason alone we should have bought it opposed to the Griffin .

 

[YZT580]

When the first test flight with a full troop load occurred. It went down at night into a forest in Kentucky.
They went out expecting multiple fatalities and serious injuries. They were amazed to find aside from a few aches and pains everybody was just fine .
For that reason alone we should have bought it opposed to the Griffin .

I don't understand your logic. Wouldn't it be better to go out on your first flight test with a full troop load at night and NOT go down into a forest in Kentucky? Just askin?

 

[GK .Dundas]

If it had been a Huey or a derivative , they would have been pulling body bags and stretchers out of that Kentucky forest.
Given my druthers I would much rather not crash at all. However the Blackhawk strikes me as a better proposition.

 

[Spencer100]

Bell is the opposition on FVL.
Their Tilt Rotor V280 is the other entrant to the competition for the UH-60 replacement.

There is nothing for Bell if LocMart wins.

Most likely the loser gets the FARA.

The Bell 360 Invictus

Bell 360 Invictus - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Sikorsky Raider X

Sikorsky Raider X - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I can't see one company getting both programs. It's not good for the industry base. As the loser would over the long time would be leaving the business.

 

[KevinB]

Most likely the loser gets the FARA.

The Bell 360 Invictus

Bell 360 Invictus - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Sikorsky Raider X

Sikorsky Raider X - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I can't see one company getting both programs. It's not good for the industry base. As the loser would over the long time would be leaving the business.

Unlikely, the platforms share a lot of common parts, the goal has been to get both from one source - unless there is a significant difference on capabilities/price.

The USMC Bell Viper and Venom show how cost effective a common core system can be.

 

[Spencer100]

Unlikely, the platforms share a lot of common parts, the goal has been to get both from one source - unless there is a significant difference on capabilities/price.

The USMC Bell Viper and Venom show how cost effective a common core system can be.

Yes in the case of the Lockmart offering. The Bell 360 Invictus has not much in common with the Valor. Bell took the strategy of going less new tech and more costing for their offering. Basing alot on the 505.

Just my thoughts Bell wants the V280 to win more than the FARA. But they have to put in for both. I think the US would mistaken giving all to one. As that will take the loser over the long run almost out of business. The industrial concerns here outweigh the strategy of platform synergies.

 

[KevinB]

Bell has the V-22 JV with Boeing.
Bell isn’t a player in the US Army since the retirement of the Kiowa Warrior.
While Boeing and Sikorsky (now part of LoMart) own the Army vertical lift. And B&S are Team Defiant.

 

[Spencer100]

Boeing with Chinook, Apache, and part of V-22
Bell Venoms and Viper plus legacy Hueys
Sikorsky with King Stallion, Blackhawks, Seahawks, S92 Marine 1
Airbus will the Lakota and coast guard helps.
MD little birds

But the winners of the FVL will be really setting the table for the next 50 years. If one company will both the rest will have almost nothing. The Chinook is winding down (they just today won 60 Germany so some life) Bell has V-22 and Other Marine legacy but not too much life left there. Sikorsky has the largest order book. From an industry point I would go Bell for FLRAA and Sikorsky for FARA. That leaves two players. Plus Boeing in the wings.

I just read a piece that DND regrets the consolidation of primes

https://www.realcleardefense.com/2022/02/16/dod_defense_contractor_consolidation_a_threat_to_national_security_816954.html

So I think industrial strategy will take a part.

 

[calculus]

According to this article (see last para), the CF is already considering replacements (next Tactical Aviation Capability Set (nTACS) project), "in part drawing on lessons from the U.S. Army’s Future Vertical Lift program and NATO’s Next-Generation Rotorcraft Capabilities project"

Bell Textron Canada to upgrade Canada’s CH-146 helicopters

The Canadian government has awarded Bell Textron Canada a contract worth approximately C$800 million to extend the life of the Royal Canadian Air Force CH-146 Griffon helicopter.

verticalmag.com

So, the winner of the FVL program could eventually serve for Canada as well.

 

[KevinB]

Boeing with Chinook, Apache, and part of V-22
Bell Venoms and Viper plus legacy Hueys
Sikorsky with King Stallion, Blackhawks, Seahawks, S92 Marine 1
Airbus will the Lakota and coast guard helps.
MD little birds

But the winners of the FVL will be really setting the table for the next 50 years. If one company will both the rest will have almost nothing. The Chinook is winding down (they just today won 60 Germany so some life) Bell has V-22 and Other Marine legacy but not too much life left there. Sikorsky has the largest order book. From an industry point I would go Bell for FLRAA and Sikorsky for FARA. That leaves two players. Plus Boeing in the wings.

I just read a piece that DND regrets the consolidation of primes

https://www.realcleardefense.com/2022/02/16/dod_defense_contractor_consolidation_a_threat_to_national_security_816954.html

So I think industrial strategy will take a part.

DoD not DND, but I think that due to the Blackhawk, there is about a zero percent chance that Bell will win FLRAA, and the Army will go with what it knows in the LocMart offering.
Past performance is a major thing, and Bell’s with the Army is rather lacking. Sure they have USMC PP, but the Army is often skeptical of other service work.


That said, I actually like the 280 better in theory. I’m just not sure if Bell can deliver the wants for it, and it takes up a large amount of space. SOCOM wants/needs a folding wing version for transport/storage - something the Defiant X can do significantly easier with just folding rotor blades.

I still think Canada should just toss the Griffon to the curb and get Blackhawks as an interim solution.

 

[kev994]

I still think Canada should just toss the Griffon to the curb and get Blackhawks as an interim solution.

The money is already spent so that’s not going to happen.

 

[Good2Golf]

The money is already spent so that’s not going to happen.

…either that or transferred as yet more contingency to get the 148 fleet all to V2.0

 

[Spencer100]

…either that or transferred as yet more contingency to get the 148 fleet all to V2.0

Hey I would do the team Canada. Pay Bell Canada to militarize and navalize the 525. Tell them to build in Canada. Buy in 4 batches. First the green ones, then the yellow ones, then the grey ones. Then even the red ones for TC. As the different timelines converge. Then most difficult system wise would replace the Cyclones in 15 years or so. There about 125 to 150 machines over a long time line. But built in Canada. And would maybe get export orders.

The one thing people forget the made in Canada solution gets a built in political power base. Example is GDLS Canada...."LAV upgrade" did they even keep the number plate? Or was that upgraded too? Or Irving's with the shipbuilding contract 6 for the navy ok we will add 2 for CG just cause.

Or even the reverse I was told Bombardier was told by the government not to play in the military platform or weapon business too much or even at all. So not having a military side of the business helped kill them. And I say hurt the CAF too. Imagine if Bombardier built more mil side Canada could still have a OEM prime airframer. The CS as a MPA etc. Bombardier still in the missile business....would be nice right now for a Canadian company to still own the manufacturer of starstruck and NLAW.