CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[SeaKingTacco]

Administrative troop lift, we can do both with the Sea King and the Cyclone.

Assault work? Neither. Not because either airframe can't handle it (although one questions the wisdom of risking a $100 million dollar helicopter to lift 20 troops), but because we do not have enough, time, money or crews to train to level required.

 

[Baz]

Question:  When a Maritime Helicopter guy says "Commando" variant, in Army speak is that a "Troop/Cargo" variant or a "SOF" variant?

I can't speak for MH guys as a whole (we don't normally talk about a commando variant as its not in our mission set), but as I laid out earlier in this thread yesterday the way I separate them is:
- MH: primary for surface and subsurface; can be stripped out and used as "admin list" or "utility"
- Littoral maneuver: USMC UH-1Ys, CH-46s, CH-53s, Ospreys; UK Sea King Mk8 (actually called a commando variant); meant for troop/cargo ship to shore and ground force support; requires different training to do effectively than what MH types routinely get.
- Commando: "SOF like" aircraft like "Pave Lows;"  Marines don't have specialized platforms and use there littoral maneuver aircraft, but it's a different skill set for the crews.  I'd include CSAR in this category, even though it is a further specialization.

That's why to me MH can come as you are to basic littoral maneuver, but would need training time and expertise to get all the way to commando... and openly laugh when people suggest we can "Come as you are" to CSAR...

 

[Kirkhill]

Peanut Gallery here. And further to Infanteer's question

When using the word Commando - is it used in the American sense? All high tech gadgets and bells and whistles to support a small number of troops.  Or is it used in the British sense?  Regular troops using regular kit but selected and trained to a very high standard?

I was under the impression that the Sea King HC4, the Commando, or Junglie, was a particularly austere aircraft. Basically a barn slung under a rotor capable of lifting 28 troops.  And that was used for both administrative (Royal Marine and Fleet Vertrep) and tactical movements, including fast-roping onto the objective.

I also was under the impression that one of the reasons the Cyclone had a tail ramp was not so much to permit rapid exits by troops but to permit a lot of the high tech gear, shown in  the left hand images above, to be rapidly removed and to leave space to carry those 20 troops.

http://www.eliteukforces.info/images/gallery/helicopters/seaking-royal-marines.jpg

Edited to add supporting documentation

 

[Good2Golf]

And I am in full agreement with George: People that decide of their own free will to go live by an airport have no business complaining about noise. Besides, they likely benefited from a lower price on their dwelling because of the airport noise.

OGBD, that still won't stop them from complaining.  As a squadron duty officer one evening years ago, I received an after hours noise complaint from a concerned citizen in Ottawa.  He was adament that it was a military helicopter making the noise (at around 0200) and he wanted something done about the thoughlessness of the military for the citizens in his neighbourhood.

It turns out that the concerned individual lived on a side-street immediately off Carling Avenue, about 200m from the Ottawa Civic Hospital's medevac helipad.  A verification of Ottawa International's control tower radio logs indicated it was the Ornge medevac helicopter.  Since the Commanding Officer was away, I drafted and signed a response letter to the complainant noting that DND takes noise complaints very seriously, and that although it was not a CF helicopter that had caused the disturbance we had identified the offending aircraft and the noise complaint file had been forwarded accordingly to the Ontario Ministry of Health in Toronto.  Unbenkownst to me, it turns out that the complainant was a physician who had a part-time home-based practice in close proximity to the hospital and was not at all appreciateive that we (DND) had forwarded his complaint to the MoH.  :'(

G2G

 

[George Wallace]

Unbenkownst to me, it turns out that the complainant was a physician who had a part-time home-based practice in close proximity to the hospital and was not at all appreciateive that we (DND) had forwarded his complaint to the MoH.  :'(

G2G

LOL!

 

[Good2Golf]

Question:  When a Maritime Helicopter guy says "Commando" variant, in Army speak is that a "Troop/Cargo" variant or a "SOF" variant?

Infanteer, I was reading "Commando" exactly as Kirkhill refers, a.k.a. "Junglie", the Westlands Commando variant of the SK.  Thus, the Canadian 'Commando" eqvt (Block 1.1?-ish) would be doing what Baz has described as Littoral Manoeuvre.  As Baz also points out, there are some platforms that, with a large enough skid pallet of LPS for 'poor man's corrosion control', could support LitOps.  Doing math on some publically available specs indicates some RCAF assets could move 20-ish bodies 400+km out from shore.  It all depends on what policy supports such an activity.

:2c:

G2G

 

[Baz]

I don't think we'll be doing littoral maneuver for a long time, if ever, we call it OOFT (operations over foreign territory) and its really administrative lift.

I want to stress to terminology I'm using isn't doctrine, its just me trying to describe the three different "levels" of "from the sea" ops.

So, to move away from the term commando and littoral maneuver:
- MH: maritime warfare
- amphibious lift: troop/cargo ship to shore
- SOF incl CSAR

I want to also stress that doesn't preclude on MH trying to do CSAR; however, you aren't equipped or trained to do it properly, therefore you take more risk.  It's the Commander's prerogative and responsibility to accept that risk.

Kirkhill: the ramp on the Cyclone was a freebie; the airframe only comes in a config that has it, it was never spec'd.  It does come in very handy to get all that stuff in and out.  The extra seats were not originally spec'd, but were added (not for free) later on.

 

[Kirkhill]

Thanks for that Baz -

With respect to Littoral Manoeuvre in general, after reading both RPP 2015-16 and DAG 2015 and finding no reference to anything that looks like a BHS anytime before 2036 I can understand your position.

On the other hand there is some opportunity for small scale LM with the AOPS domestically (Platoon scale, Company scale if a pair of AOPS were employed and the Company were reduced) and also some Company scale expeditionary work with the AORs.

The other outlier, with respect to LM, is the CSC programme and whether or not it will incorporate some Absolon type capabilities in some/all of the hulls.  A CTG could then be expected to lift and deploy a Lt Bn Task Gp. 

But all of that depends on how much Jointery the CAF and its Barons are willing to accept.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Edited to add: and if it was using the latest Sea King or Cyclone as a "come as you are" "overwatch" (ISR and/or Battle Management) I would bet there is a good chance we would politely be asked to vacate our two seats in favour of an "operator" liaison on the radios and an "analyst" also provided by them.

Just a quick question; why would you vacate your seats for a few riders?  Is it a space/seats issue alone or something else?  Just wondering, if you were doing ISR who would be smashing the buttons?

We take 'riders' along but I've never seen them displace a crew member, but we have a bit more room for them compared to you guys.  They look over our shoulders.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

We don't have loadies or FEs, so even in an admin lift of troopies in the back of an MH, you need some combo of ACSO/AESOp in the back to fill the "flight attendent" role of crowd control/ making sure everyone is safe.

 

[Baz]

Just a quick question; why would you vacate your seats for a few riders?  Is it a space/seats issue alone or something else?  Just wondering, if you were doing ISR who would be smashing the buttons?

We take 'riders' along but I've never seen them displace a crew member, but we have a bit more room for them compared to you guys.  They look over our shoulders.

Again my (albeit relatively well informed) opinion.

I hate the term ISR (and I helped to staff the current definition of it in NATO).  It doesn't mean anything, because everyone has a different understanding of what it does mean: surveillance and reconnaissance (but supporting ops or int?), intelligence collection (and PED), a fusion of those three concepts, MAJIIC, the right info to the right person at the right time, airborne battle management, etc???  I do know the term came into vogue because of marketing by companies promising to solve all those problems for you...

So what part of ISR do you mean?  By the way, ISR is not in our CONOPS, SOI, or SOR; SRO (surveillance and reconnaissance ops) is a supporting air operation, but our two primary roles are surface and sub-surface warfare; ie enabling the ship or TG to go into harms way against viable threats as a reactive vehicle.

What I do know, is that in some ways we could (but not necessarily will) support certain types of ops it is easier to train someone to "smash" the buttons then it is to train us to understand what they are trying to accomplish, so we should have a thought process that is open to understanding that may be the best way to do it, especially since we only have two screens.  We would still be onboard the aircraft to perform "other aircrew duties as assigned" and assist them.

 

[Underway]

The Cyclones are comming the cyclones are comming!!

And here are the first 6.

Copied from CBC.

Canada's aging Sea King helicopter fleet has begun to be phased out after the Canadian Forces accepted six CH-148 Cyclone helicopters today outside of Halifax.

Defence Minister Jason Kenney said the new aircraft is "bigger, faster and more efficient," than the more than 50-year-old Sea Kings.

Kenney, Public Works and Government Services Minister Diane Finley and Justice Minister Peter MacKay made the announcement at the 12 Wing Shearwater airbase outside Halifax Friday

The plan to replace the Sea King choppers — which fly from the decks of Canadian warships — is years behind schedule, at least $200 million over budget and beset with technical glitches.

The government announced last summer it had finally signed a renegotiated contract with helicopter-maker Sikorsky for 28 new CH-148 Cyclone helicopters at a cost of $7.6 billion.

Kenney took the opportunity to criticize Jean Chretien's Liberal government for cancelling the original program in 1993, to the tune of $478 million in penalties.

"We should have been at this point many, many years ago," said Kenney. "We're back on track."

So does this mean they are going on deployments shortly?  Are they going to be used for real work?  Or are we not quite there yet and still need to work through the TTP's etc...? 

I'm a bit fuzzy on the airforces implementation timelines.  I understand that the C-17 went right to work but we had the advantage of US training and assistance to pre-prepare the flight crews.  A MH is a little more complicated I would think, especially in getting a handle on the new capabilities and training up the ships crew and flight crew on how to best employ them.

 

[CycloneMech]

It'll be a while yet.  As you indicated, the C-17 world had the advantage of the USAF experiences operating that airframe in various environments for a number of years before we acquired them. The Cyclone crews (air and ground) need to develop and flesh out what can and what cannot be done over the next few months, basically pushing the limits of the envelope beyond what has already been determined. I think "Baz" can probably jump on this one a tad more accurately than me.

Thoughts?

 

[Baz]

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=989279

" The aircraft being accepted today will be based at 12 Wing Shearwater and are being used for training and testing with Canadian Armed Forces personnel."

Basically the acceptance allows us to start Operational Test.  It's not really about expanding the envelope, that's AETE testing; which wiill be part of Block 1.1 and Block 2 deliveries.  Its about ensuring everything is in pkace (procedures,tactics, training etc) to start conversion training (moving people from 124 to 148 for dets) safely and effectively, and measuring the resultant capability for the Commander.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Politics, speeches, delays and all that aside...it was nice to see this happen today; I am on leave and was watching live stream on the PC.

BZ to everyone in the MH world for pushing on thru, and hope to hear of the first Block 'X' CH-148 deploying ASAP.

Any chance one might be seen on TGEX?  We will be there to play...

 

[yoman]

Any chance one might be seen on TGEX?  We will be there to play...

I've been hearing rumblings about it happening sooner rather than later...

 

[cupper]

So…

Clear something up for me. Are they actually in Shearwater now, or have they only been accepted at the assembly plant and will be moved onto testing before delivery to Shearwater.

And if they are already in Shearwater, why not have them on display during the announcement?

 

[yoman]

So…

Clear something up for me. Are they actually in Shearwater now, or have they only been accepted at the assembly plant and will be moved onto testing before delivery to Shearwater.

And if they are already in Shearwater, why not have them on display during the announcement?

They are in Shearwater and they were on display during the announcement...

 

[cupper]

interesting. CBC online didn't show any photos from the event, and only used stock photos taken during tests earlier in Halifax.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/canada-finally-gets-replacements-for-sea-king-copters-one-problem-they-may-not-be-powerful-enough

I hope someone in this particular lane can speak on this.