CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[Lumber]

Not to be pedantic, but if we’re throwing away the MH CONOPs because we feel it can’t be met by our current helicopter or any logical replacement, shouldn’t we decide on what we want to do and have a new CONOPs before thinking about which helicopter?

That's... Not the Canadian way...

 

[Good2Golf]

Not to be pedantic, but if we’re throwing away the MH CONOPs because we feel it can’t be met by our current helicopter or any logical replacement, shouldn’t we decide on what we want to do and have a new CONOPs before thinking about which helicopter?

I didn’t figure there was any change needed for MH concept as that planned for MHP, an EH-101 or 60R would seem to still fit the CONOP of an MH operating from an FFGH/DDGH.

 

[Lumber]

I didn’t figure there was any change needed for MH concept as that planned for MHP, an EH-101 or 60R would seem to still fit the CONOP of an MH operating from an FFGH/DDGH.

Depends. If they are looking for OTH comms/TDL, then that could imply using them as low level scouts in ASUW vice a high-level scout providing a longer range (and much more obvious) radar picture. That talk of going with Romeos could also entail using them as a maritime strike platform (Hellfires) which would tie in with the new low-level scouting capability. All of this speaks to increasing the usefulness of the RCN MH in an ASUW role, but does nothing to enhance (or maintain) it's capabilities in the ASW role, for which it is already, effectively, the peak of capabilities in the world (other than no TDL...).

 

[Baz]

I didn’t figure there was any change needed for MH concept as that planned for MHP, an EH-101 or 60R would seem to still fit the CONOP of an MH operating from an FFGH/DDGH.

Except the MH CONOPs is not just an MH operating from an FFGH/DDGH. It’s an MH operating independently from an FFGH/DDGH.

So:

• the Cyclone, on paper, yes, in reality, ?
• a Merlin, yes
• a 60R, at a stretch, maybe
• a Lynx or any other small helicopter, no

Therefore, before we can talk about those last two, we have to revisit the CONOPs.

Or, we have to adopt whatever helicopter we buy CONOPs… and if that’s the case, we should adopt everything else. Which may be the right choice???

But make no mistake, a Lynx or 60R is not the same as a Merlin, or Cyclone (on paper).

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Psssst! Baz: we don't have FFGH's!

 

[Baz]

Psssst! Baz: we don't have FFGH's!

Psssst; I know. Iwas using the OPs terminology.

 

[KevinB]

Except the MH CONOPs is not just an MH operating from an FFGH/DDGH. It’s an MH operating independently from an FFGH/DDGH.

Since I doubt you mean they swim home if need be, can you explain ‘independently’ for those of us not familiar with the MH world.

 

[Baz]

Since I doubt you mean they swim home if need be, can you explain ‘independently’ for those of us not familiar with the MH world.

So, I was answering questions about deck ops on Facebook, and somebody called me an "Attention-W" (I had to look it up) and told me to get a life... but here goes.

Independantly, as discussed in the CONOPs, is the ability of the aircraft to make most tactical decisions itself, instead of relying on the warfare commander or ship. It includes the ability to take other platforms "under control" to prosecute. For the RN Sea King, that went all the way to the observer being a qualified "Freddie" ("shipborne" air controller) to do positive control.

So, for example, instead of the ASW controller saying "helo 1 dip here, helo 2 dip here, etc" they can just say "helo1, take helo 2 and prosecute your descretion."

Obviously, the lines blur, but that's the gist of it. And, it's no surprise the aircraft that can do it, Merlin and Cyclone, have a crew of four and a dedicated battle manager. It's an ACSO in the Cyclone and an RN Observer in the Merlin.

The question then becomes, with increasingly good electronic picture compilation and command and control, is it required for Canada?

 

[Good2Golf]

But make no mistake, a Lynx or 60R is not the same as a Merlin, or Cyclone (on paper).

Yeah, tracking that 110%. Nothing close to Merlin, not even NH-90 (in whichever of its 17 different configurations). 60R is a compromise of some sort.

Psssst! Baz: we don't have FFGH's!

Psssst; I know. Iwas using the OPs terminology.

I was just trying to cover the bookies’ odds on whether the Rivers end up being designated a DDGH or an FFH with some SM2s…

 

[KevinB]

I was just trying to cover the bookies’ odds on whether the Rivers end up being designated a DDGH or an FFH with some SM2s…

Pretty sure it was announced as a DDG (with soft H)

 

[NavyShooter]

I recall at one point that the 'plan' for uplink/downlink from the CH-148 was briefed as a terminal located in the ADR, and the air crew would take a 'snapshot' of the RMP onto a hard drive, which they'd then bring with them into the helo....then they'd go fly, update the RMP as they were flying, and any updates they got would be downloaded from the helo after landing by sticking the drive back into the terminal to upload to the RMP that the ship was using.

Meaning that there was no Link for the helo at that time. (Bear in mind, this info is 10 years old plus, and therefore is subject to change with newer developments.)

 

[Baz]

I recall at one point that the 'plan' for uplink/downlink from the CH-148 was briefed as a terminal located in the ADR, and the air crew would take a 'snapshot' of the RMP onto a hard drive, which they'd then bring with them into the helo....then they'd go fly, update the RMP as they were flying, and any updates they got would be downloaded from the helo after landing by sticking the drive back into the terminal to upload to the RMP that the ship was using.

Meaning that there was no Link for the helo at that time. (Bear in mind, this info is 10 years old plus, and therefore is subject to change with newer developments.)

That was, and is, a Cyclone capability. It’s called MPAS (mission preparation and analysis service) and is installed in the ADR. There was an interface to CCS-330 but that has been removed. It’s not just for RMP. It was in addition to Link-11.

The Sea King had a much more modest RMP upload and download capability via OTH-Gold from/to GCCS. In the case of the Sea King, the entire computer was carried to/from the aircraft, not just the hard drive, and used as the ground support computer.

 

[Maxman1]

Pretty sure Merlins are out of the picture so long as the Liberals are in power and a certain past PM is still alive. It would be too much of an admission of incompetence on their part.

It's getting harder to avoid that at this point.

Yes good idea, adopt another orphan fleet that has no other user for that role...
So then you would be well over 1B but heck you do you...

But it'll work  this time for sure.

 

[suffolkowner]

Cyclone replacement dilemma

EH101 helicopter that Liberals canceled and actively avoided or

American Sikorsky product no 2

 

[Fabius]

Is there a historical example, say post 1969, of the Department of Defense and the CAF admitting that a medium or large scale equipment program had failed post delivery and then scrapped the program and changed directions?

 

[KevinB]

Is there a historical example, say post 1969, of the Department of Defense and the CAF admitting that a medium or large scale equipment program had failed post delivery and then scrapped the program and changed directions?

Eryx ?
Honestly ever other program that has been awful (and there have been a bunch) have just had the requirements lowered continually until it passed (or in the case of LSVW watered down that no one cares if it fails again as it doesn’t matter a P or F because it will be a huge F regardless.

 

[Fabius]

Eryx was never replaced though. It was just allowed to fade away.