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Civi protesters, repect and the CDS's speech merged topics

Do you think civilians have more, less or equal respect for the Forces as compared to a few years ag

  • Less respect

    Votes: 35 32.1%
  • More respect

    Votes: 45 41.3%
  • About the same

    Votes: 30 27.5%

  • Total voters
    109
Sam - thanks for the drive by trolling

So by your admission you got out 20 years ago - served 6 years (3 of which was reserve) in at least three units...
Even IF you had insightings into the military ethos 1985 is a way back too far to have any current perspective

Thanks for coming out
::)


That said I am rather unimpressed with the professionalism of some of my serving brothers here. 
As far as protestors go, just Dial I for Ignore, and reaction will be the wrong one.
 
Hmmm I visited that link to indymedia that was posted here and it seems to me that some people from this site have taken it upon themselves to post some very nasty comments over there.

I thought that was grounds for getting 'verbal warnings' on army.ca? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that once that link was posted here, several comments were made over there that reflect badly on this site.

As it's been stated on this thread, they have the right to protest and it's us that defends that right. Whether we agree with their politics or not, they aren't worth beating up and they sure aren't worth posting reactionary comments on their website that just make us look like a bunch of thugs IMHO.
 
NavComm said:
Hmmm I visited that link to indymedia that was posted here and it seems to me that some people from this site have taken it upon themselves to post some very nasty comments over there.

I thought that was grounds for getting 'verbal warnings' on army.ca? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that once that link was posted here, several comments were made over there that reflect badly on this site.

As it's been stated on this thread, they have the right to protest and it's us that defends that right. Whether we agree with their politics or not, they aren't worth beating up and they sure aren't worth posting reactionary comments on their website that just make us look like a bunch of thugs IMHO.

i took the opportunity to post what I thought as a polite post, though I think that is a "third party' site is it not - not actually run by the Generals For Shooting Hillier or whatever?  Anyway, I didn't mention army.ca.  Just wanted to put something up there that didn't look it was written by a mental defective, as some of the other "fuck you civvie" posts seemed to do.
 
NavComm said:
As it's been stated on this thread, they have the right to protest and it's us that defends that right. Whether we agree with their politics or not, they aren't worth beating up and they sure aren't worth posting reactionary comments on their website that just make us look like a bunch of thugs IMHO.

So...they have the right to protest...but we don't?

I dunno about you, but I'm not interested in fighting for their freedom of speech if it means I have to loose all right to mine.
 
It's not that we as CF mbrs don't have freedom of speech, but simply that we are obliged to conduct ourselves with a certain sense of restraint and impartiality.  The post that started this whole thread was unfortunate in its virulence, but the discussion itself is important!

I think it's great that people protest - noone among us can claim a perfectly balanced knowledge of society and all its ills, and people expressing themselves from their various perspectives makes our country stronger in the long run, IMO.
 
bridges said:
It's not that we as CF mbrs don't have freedom of speech, but simply that we are obliged to conduct ourselves with a certain sense of restraint and impartiality.  The post that started this whole thread was unfortunate in its virulence, but the discussion itself is important!

I think it's great that people protest - noone among us can claim a perfectly balanced knowledge of society and all its ills, and people expressing themselves from their various perspectives makes our country stronger in the long run, IMO.

I agree. We may not necessarily share the opinions of those who protest what we do (though I believe that there is a degree of validity to what they say, even if they say it in a distasteful way), but dissidence is a sign of a healthy democracy. If ever Canada came to a point where people felt that they couldn't protest (such as is happening in the US, where protestors are being labelled "unpatriotic"), I would feel that I had failed as a soldier. Failed to uphold one of the fundamental freedoms that our society holds most valuable. Failed to prevent Canada from becoming a nation of repression.
 
Kyle said:
I agree. We may not necessarily share the opinions of those who protest what we do (though I believe that there is a degree of validity to what they say, even if they say it in a distasteful way), but dissidence is a sign of a healthy democracy. If ever Canada came to a point where people felt that they couldn't protest (such as is happening in the US, where protestors are being labelled "unpatriotic"), I would feel that I had failed as a soldier. Failed to uphold one of the fundamental freedoms that our society holds most valuable. Failed to prevent Canada from becoming a nation of repression.

Protesting once you are in a War is unpatriotic...  and somewhat subversive -- it takes away from the troops, erodes their resolve and makes them second guess - a surefire way to kill them even if you do not press the trigger yourself.

Once a nation takes a fateful steup into war their is only victory or defeat -- the nation requires solidarity.  It is a Time for action not for words.


 
Sam, sam, sam........................ You and your kind just don't get it do you? You really don't!  You and everyone like you goes to the protests and the rallies, trying to urge our politicians to take a spot sitting on the fence being spineless and indecisive.  The hippies and tree-huggers paint us war mongers who only want to go kill, loot and raze.  Guess what? These extremist groups want YOU and all your protesting buddies just as dead as they'd like to see us!!!!!  How many soldiers were in the World Trade Centre towers????  Get this much straight, they brought the fight to North American soil, they attack CIVILIAN targets all across the globe.  WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!
 
A few good quotes to think about... ;)

A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety,
is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free,
unless made and kept so by the exertions and blood of better
men than himself.

John Stuart Mill


The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the
people who are evil, but because of the people who don't
do anything about it.

Albert Einstein


There is no record in history of a nation that ever gained
anything valuable by not being able to defend itself.

H.L. Mencken
 
I came across this site a while back and thought it fit with the current discussion

GF

http://www.protestwarrior.com/
 
Just a philosophical reflection on KevinB's comment, and how it fits into this thread:

Protesting once you are in a War is unpatriotic...

So ... is this the "either you're with us or your against us" school of thought?  If you disagree with the government and are exercising what you feel is your duty as a citizen to say so, does that make you any less Canadian?  I sure hope not.  That's not the country I signed up to defend.
 
bridges said:
Just a philosophical reflection on KevinB's comment, and how it fits into this thread:
KevinB said:
Protesting once you are in a War is unpatriotic...    
bridges said:
So ... is this the "either you're with us or your against us" school of thought?   If you disagree with the government and are exercising what you feel is your duty as a citizen to say so, does that make you any less Canadian?   I sure hope not.   That's not the country I signed up to defend.

Are you sure you are an officer in the Canadian Forces?   In time of war you are bound by your Oath as a member of the CF.   I highly doubt that any form of protest made by a member of the CF would be considered anything else than one of several things; all bad.   Worse case scenario would be Treason, followed by Desertion and Insubordination, and by Conduct Unbecoming a Member of the CF.   Then there is "Prejudice to the Good Order and Discipline.   If those are your true feelings, please hand in your Commission now.
 
George Wallace, that response is based on several incorrect assumptions.   Furthermore, it comes across as an attack against my professionalism and an insult to NCMs - although I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.

Are you sure you are an officer in the Canadian Forces?   In time of war you are bound by your Oath as a member of the CF.   I highly doubt that any form of protest made by a member of the CF would be considered anything else than one of several things; all bad.   Worse case scenario would be Treason, followed by Desertion and Insubordination, and by Conduct Unbecoming a Member of the CF.   Then there is "Prejudice to the Good Order and Discipline.   If those are your true feelings, please hand in your Commission now.

IF you had read my previous posts on this topic, you would know that I am supporting the right of Canadian citizens in general to protest what the government is doing, AND that I maintain that as members of the CF we are obliged to act with restraint and impartiality.   I didn't say that I wanted to protest or that CF members should be protesting - I said that OTHER CANADIANS should be allowed to.    

As for handing in my commission, well... I was a Senior NCO before becoming an officer, and during that part of my career I was also subject to the same high standards of conduct and professionalism that are expected of all in uniform.   To say otherwise is an insult to all of our fine NCMs.

As far as the topic at hand goes, I still think that Canadian citizens, except those in the CF, should not be considered any less patriotic if they feel it's their civic duty to protest what their government is doing, even if their government is at war.   The US is full of people who don't support the war in Iraq, but vocally support the troops - it's not that hard a concept.    If Canada turned into a country that tried to silence its protestors, I would find that far more ominous than any threat from outside our borders.    

 
Perhaps you would like to reread your own post; as that is the impression I got from your comments, expressing your views on KevinB's post.    ::)
 
Okay, it's a good point to raise because sometimes people don't realize how they come across, and I am as guilty of that as the next person.  Let's take a look at it.

Here's what KevinB said:

Protesting once you are in a War is unpatriotic...  and somewhat subversive -- it takes away from the troops

And, here's what I said:

So ... is this the "either you're with us or your against us" school of thought?  If you disagree with the government and are exercising what you feel is your duty as a citizen to say so, does that make you any less Canadian?  I sure hope not.  That's not the country I signed up to defend.

Could that be read as meaning that I thought CF members should be allowed to protest?  Hmmm....possibly.  let's check a couple of earlier posts in this thread.

48Highlander said:
So...they have the right to protest...but we don't?

I dunno about you, but I'm not interested in fighting for their freedom of speech if it means I have to loose all right to mine.

To which I responded...
It's not that we as CF mbrs don't have freedom of speech, but simply that we are obliged to conduct ourselves with a certain sense of restraint and impartiality.

Was I saying that CF members should be allowed to protest?  Hmmm....NO.  I guess anything can be read however the reader wants.  Obviously CF members don't have the right to protest, nor should we IMO.  BUT - if civilian Canadians don't have the right either, regardless of whether we're at war or not, then that would definitely not be the kind of country I signed up to defend, I don't know about you.



 
I caught the lecture General Hillier gave to Carleton University, and it is something worth watching. He gave a great lecture and outlined the role of the Canadian military's role in the world.

You can find times for the show on the website below:
http://www.cpac.ca/forms/index.asp?dsp=template&act=view3&template_id=107&lang=e
On September 22, 2005, General R.J. Hillier, Canadian Forces Chief of Defence Staff, delivered the annual Dick, Ruth and Judy Bell Lecture at Carleton University in Ottawa.

The most entertaining part of the lecture was the question period. One guy got up as asked the General:
"You are not doing anything to protect Canada from an aggressive United States. Will you resign?"  ??? (A couple of them asked a question to that effect)

To which the General responded: "No."

Upon which the audience booed the guy giving the question and gave the General a standing ovation. Pretty entertaining.

There were a couple of good questions though.

 
Yeah I saw that speach also, and I agree wit hyou that the General gave a great speach. However the part that I found myself getting off the couch and wanting to give those idiots during the question period a good old shot in the head. I just thought that there were much more MATURE students attending university now. Oh well guess I was wrong.I did however how the general did not play into some of the stupid questions and how the teacher clamped down on those stupid questions. Or should I say the cries for attention.

Oh well..
 
I've been looking for the full story of how this evening went down (I know its been a month).
It was the best and least biased report I could find. I will also post it at the other thread regarding Hiller's speach.

http://www.charlatan.ca/articles/2005/09/29/stories/50812.html

"Hillier protesters draw dissent

Audience heckles activists during General's speech on campus

by Philippe Morin

  The first "boos" of the lecture came when Gen. Rick Hillier pulled out a Toronto Maple Leafs notebook.

It was a joke meant to tease an Ottawa crowd of around 350 people who gathered at Carleton to watch Canada's chief of the defence staff speak Sept. 22.

The loudest boos came from the Student Coalition Against War group, which protested the speech beforehand and gave out flyers depicting Canada's top soldier as a nuclear-powered monster.

The Raging Grannies held a sing-along outside the theatre, singing anti-war songs to the tune of "The Ants Go Marching."

At the speech, young people wearing anti-war buttons sat next to ex-military officers.

Hillier's speech, "Canada's military in a dangerous new world," addressed the issue of Canadian participation in Afghanistan.

He said Canada's upcoming contingent would be on a mission of peace, looking to build "psychological security" and protect Afghan efforts to rebuild one of the most destitute regions of the world.

"There are four million people in Kabul," Hillier said. "My estimate is that 25 to 50 of those would gladly work to kill Canadian soldiers on any given day.

"But four million people in Kabul are absolutely delighted and ecstatic that our soldiers are there."

Citing the Sept. 18 Afghan elections, Hillier called Canada's presence a "beacon of hope in Afghanistan."

He also recommended sweeping changes to the military, so "Canadian values" can be backed by "Canadian toughness," if necessary.

At the question period that followed the speech, several students lined up at the provided microphones and accused Hillier of promoting imperialism, Americanism and capitalist empire-building.

Trevor Haché of the Student Coalition Against War was first to take the microphone.

"I'd first like to commend Mr. Hillier on his public service, but there is an elephant in the room no one is talking about," Haché said.

He then held up a copy of Embassy magazine, which featured a quote from outspoken British MP George Galloway.

In the magazine, Galloway is quoted as saying Canada is making "strategic mistakes" in Afghanistan and jeopardizing its "fine reputation" as a peacekeeper in the Muslim world by being allied with the United States.

Wearing a green military-style jacket, Haché embarked on a speech of his own.

He raised objections about the United States' "affection" for nuclear arms and what he called its recent move toward approving potential pre-emptive nuclear strikes against rogue nations.

Crowd noise increased as Haché pulled out another article citing Robert McNamara, former American secretary of defence, who now says the American nuclear policy is immoral and illegal.

"What is your question, please?" asked Katherine Graham, moderator of the question period, as Haché reached for a third article.

"My question is simple," Haché said.

"What are the Canadian forces doing to protect the rest of the world from the United States, which is increasingly belligerent, ignoring international law, conducting illegal wars . . ."

At that moment, the crowd roared and Haché was drowned out. Audience members booed, yelled "get off the mic" and told Haché to sit down.

Some clapped in approval while others whistled and banged notebooks.

Another student, who spoke after Haché, challenged Hillier to resign.

Immediately, boos and heckles shot from the audience.

Hillier's one-word reply, "No," received a standing ovation.

As questions kept coming, Hillier seemed to keep his composure.

He repeated his view that Canada was "not building an empire" in Afghanistan as three more students accused him of participating in capitalist empire-building.

"We work with many nations, including, sometimes, the United States," Hillier said.

With six people left standing in line for questions, Graham stopped the show.

Hillier addressed a few more comments to the audience and left for an informal reception in the Loeb Building.

Gary Dalby, a former air force pilot officer from Nepean, said he was angered by the protesters. He said the audience heckling was clearly in favour of Hillier.

"The crowd showed where their emphasis was," he said.

Carleton president David Atkinson was at the speech and called the night a success.

"The general's views are very impassioned," Atkinson said. "He obviously feels very committed. He's very single-minded and driven. And whenever you have someone [like him] you'll always have people who are equally impassioned and equally committed, but see the world in a different way."

Atkinson said the raucous atmosphere in the lecture hall was "predictable" considering the controversial nature of the speech.

Though things "got pretty animated," he said, the night was an example of free speech and democracy.

"I think it's useful," he said. "I think it's what universities are for. We exist for every point of view to be heard and that's what happened tonight. If we didn't exist to allow that to happen, society would be worse off."
 
at about 2 this morning I pulled down several posts by a kid out west someplace who depicted the CF as a bunch of murderers and...well I'm sure you get the idea.

My point is twofold.

First: He obviously believed what he was saying as there was too much effort oput into his posts for me to think otherwise.

Second: There wasn't one thing even remotely right in his tirades against the CF (or anything else. The JTF2 also featured prominently in this kid's abusive post) yet he had a whole conspirecy written down and firmly believed that we are in the midst of some criminal operatins in a'stan and other plaes.

I personally would like to know wherre this kid is getting his info from?! And who are the real ones behind the disinformation (which is working as well as any int psyop could be expected to) that is floating around out there.

Do we dare to belive that the Taliban and A.Q. supporters are behind all this?
 
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