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Close Combat Vehicle: Canada to buy another AFV (& keeping LAV III & TLAV)

Just to back it up a bit and bring context.  There has been some back and forth leading up to this, between the writers Byers and Webb and Nexter's Mike Duckworth.

The recent back and forth started with this.  http://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National%20Office/2013/09/Stuck_in_a_Rut.pdf  "Stuck in Rut" which essentially implies as our decisions to bring back tanks was cold war thinking (even though it was for Afghan) and since the CCV is suppose to accompany tanks, the decision for CCV is outdated and illogical. We all know that it isn't that simple, and the debate between do we optimize for COIN or Conventional will likely never end.

The following was a rebuttal from Nexter's Mike Duckworth.  Asking if we were in fact using Cold war doctrine for this decision and how the LAV 6.0 doesn't match up the way Byers and Webb would like you to believe.

The Case For Purchasing The Close Combat Vehicle For The Canadian Army
By Mike Duckworth

Senior Vice President with Nexter

Defence Watch Guest Writer

Last week, the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives – Rideau Institute (CCPA-RI) published a report entitled “Stuck in a Rut” which recommends the cancellation of the Department of National Defence’s Close Combat Vehicle (CCV) program. As one of the competing companies which designs and manufactures vehicles intended to protect soldiers, Nexter Systems through Nexter Canada feels it has an obligation to speak out in the interests of providing Canadians with accurate and reliable information on this important public policy matter.

We also hope that the other companies involved in the CCV competition – General Dynamics Land Systems and BAE-Hagglunds – will join us in supporting this crucial procurement program.

Nexter is limited for security reasons on what we can say about military vehicle specifications. However, we would like to offer some general remarks on the CCV program both to support the Government’s decision to proceed with this important procurement and to dispel what we believe are inaccurate and ill-informed comments from the CCPA-RI study.

The 40 page CCPA-RI report recommends the cancellation of CCV based on two principal arguments:



1.    That CCV is based upon outdated Cold War main battle tank (MBT) doctrine; and



2.    That the Light Armoured Vehicle III Upgrade (LAV III UP) satisfies the CCV program requirements.



Is CCV based on out dated Cold War Doctrine?

In the CCPA-RI study, much criticism is levelled at the Canadian Government for maintaining its tank fleet and for the decision to deploy Canadian Leopard tanks in Afghanistan. MBTs are cited as being counterproductive to the new Counter Insurgency (COIN) doctrine deployed in the later years of the Afghan conflict.  By extrapolation, the report concludes that CCV has no place in this new COIN doctrine.

But what is COIN? Within military thinking, COIN can be considered as one phase of a conflict or indeed one type of response doctrine. Certainly COIN has been brought into sharp focus in recent years in Afghanistan as coalition forces have sought to rebuild that nation through hearts and minds campaigns working with local populations, security sector capacity building and reform and governance support. However, even in COIN operations, the MBT has a role to play. The presence of tanks can serve as a persuasive disincentive for armed groups and insurgents seeking to de-stabilize a town or village where the ability to employ overwhelming force is an important confidence building measure for local populations seeking safety and security. Equally, where a security situation has deteriorated, tanks can be one tool among many used to re-establish stability.

However, COIN is not a “one size fits all” response to all potential conflicts in the future.  While symmetric threats from major powers are still possible, they are highly unlikely. However, asymmetric or dissymmetric flash points continue to exist. While Afghanistan is an example of the former, the current situation in Syria is a case in point for the latter. There remain extremely well equipped unstable nations that possess naval, land, and air power in addition to chemical and biological weapons. And while these military forces would be insufficient to defend against a large scale military intervention by NATO, they are capable of inflicting suffering on their own civilian populations and threatening neighbouring countries. Is the CCPA-RI study suggesting that air and naval power are the only tools required? One would hope not because most militaries would see that as both unrealistic and ineffective. Instead, virtually all NATO countries maintain a spectrum of capability that includes tanks and heavy armour, artillery, mortars as well as light armoured and reconnaissance vehicles.

As noted, the CCPA-RI report criticizes the Canadian Government for deploying Leopard tanks in Afghanistan. Far from being alone in this approach, both Denmark (Leopard A5) and the US Marines (Abrams M1AI) deployed theirs. The CCPA-RI report suggests that the UK took a positive decision not to send their Challengers, but also concedes that the British used both Danish and Canadian tanks. Here’s what some of our allies have to say about the use of tanks in COIN operations. Kaptajn Bjarne B. Hundevad, Squadron Chief of 2 ESK (the Danish Army’s Second Tank Squadron wrote in a paper in April 2009 that:

“The Leopard 2A5 DK is a robust and accurate weapons system. It’s not that such vehicles cannot be knocked out. But Leopard 2A5s have yet to suffer any serious damage in Afghanistan. Moreover, these tanks add firepower and have boosted ISAF morale. The Taliban is terrified by the tanks.”

As the US was about to deploy tanks in November 2010, MGen Richard Mills, the US Marine commander in Afghanistan, told the BBC that: “Tanks are hardly a weapon of desperation but simply another tool to wage COIN [counterinsurgency efforts] in an effective way that will save Afghan and Coalition lives.” In another interview with the Army Times in December of that year, he said:

“The tank, with its optics, with its stand-off distance, with its battle armor, gives me a very, very good tool that I can use once again to bring very, very precise fires on the insurgents and ensure that civilian casualties don’t rise, an issue that we are very concerned about here.”

So far from being a relic of the past, recent experience shows how heavy armour and its associated precision fire power still have a place in the initial phase of winning a war as in the First and Second Gulf War and indeed within COIN operations in Afghanistan.

Does LAV III UP satisfy the CCV requirements?

The requirement of medium and heavy armour vehicles in the military commander’s toolkit, capable of contributing to high intensity combat situations is vital.  The CCV backgrounder (updated on 6th September) on the Department of National Defence website states:

“The experience of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) and that of other nations in operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon and other operational theatre demonstrates the requirement for a new highly survivable medium-weight (25-45 tonnes) armoured Close Combat Vehicle (CCV). The threats of mines, Improvised Explosive Devices, Explosively Formed Projectiles and anti-armour weapons have proliferated and are likely to be faced in most medium to high-threat missions. A more robust vehicle with both passive and active protection appropriate to the mission will likely be required frequently in the future.

The CCV is intended to overcome the aforementioned deficiencies in capabilities as well as fulfill future operational concept requirements. Changes in recent years to the threats facing the CAF on operations have led to increased attention on protection.

The CCV project will provide the CAF with a medium-weight armoured vehicle that is both highly protected and tactically mobile. The CCV will bridge the gap between the current light (5-25 tonnes) and heavy armoured (45 tonnes +) vehicle fleets therefore providing the Canadian Army with an operational capability that can operate in intimate support of the Main Battle Tank or independently within a high-intensity environment.

This project is part of the family of land combat vehicles, announced in July 2009, and provides the Canadian Army with a flexible, multi-purpose capability enabling the CAF to respond effectively and successfully to the full spectrum of military operations.”

Many other countries have also opted for a heavier infantry fighting vehicle (either tracked or wheeled) very similar to what Canada is acquiring through the CCV program. These include: the United States, Britain, France, Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Norway, Poland and Austria.  These medium weight vehicles ensure that dismounted troops can be delivered safely to a tactical objective in a high tempo high threat combat environment in support of, or supported by MBTs.

The LAV III entered service with the Canadian Army in 1999. The LAV III Upgrade Program was initiated in 2009 with the first production contract awarded in 2011. It is intended to extend the life of these vehicles to 2035. Central to the LAV III UP program is the development of the Double ‘V’ Hull (DVH). When the limitations of the US Stryker (LAV III in US service) against IEDs became evident, the development of an improved blast protection system commenced soon after.  In 2009/2010 at the time of inception of the CCV program, initial results of the DVH analysis and testing were already demonstrating that the DVH concept improved the protection of the LAV III.  While the details of DVH performance are quite rightly restricted, we can surmise that the decision to press ahead with CCV was taken in the full knowledge of DVH protection capability. As a general comment, we at Nexter can certainly attest to the high priority the Canadian Government gives to protecting its soldiers through the CCV program.

Associated with the DVH solution is an increase of vehicle mass.  The LAV III Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) is 38000 lbs (or 17.3 tonnes).  The GVW of LAV UP is quoted as 55,000 lbs (or 25 tonnes) representing an increase of 44%. To compensate for this increase in weight, a new more powerful engine has been provided passing from 350 HP to 450 HP representing a 28% increase or an effective decrease in the power to weight ratio of LAVIII to LAV III UP.  In reality, the GVW is more often the safe design limit. Consequently, it can be expected that LAV III UP will be initially fielded at something less than 25 tonnes – somewhat less than the medium weight protection required by the CCV.

Crucial to the CCV is its mobility performance in the most demanding environments and terrain. Its mobility requirements are extremely challenging to the point that both tracked vehicles and the latest generation of wheeled platforms were evaluated alongside each other.

CCVs are larger medium weight vehicles than LAV III UP. A simple physical comparison of the three CCV competitors against the LAV III UP is instructive in this regard. The CCV will also provide both increased individual crew and stowage volume inside the vehicle. This ensures that missions of extended durations can be undertaken in increased comfort.  Personal equipment stowage inside the vehicle forms part of the vehicle’s combat efficiency.

Closing Statement

In common with other modern forces around the world, Canada has defined the CCV as its medium weight vehicle.  As noted above, many countries have capability in the medium weight vehicle range, characterised by their ability to support tanks or conduct independent missions in high intensity environments.

The LAV III Upgrade Program clearly provides important and much needed incremental improvements to the original LAVIII vehicle fleet which is the work horse of the Canadian Army. However, the upgraded LAV IIIs are still not comparable to the more robust, well protected CCV

After this was Byers and Webb's article which is was posted above by AF Guy

While they both leave out the inconvenient truths to their arguments, I tend to lean toward Mr. Duckworth's argument, simply because it is more factual and less rhetorical. 
 
Of course Nexter would object to any arguments that would see them unable to charge us a premium for what is at best a small incremental improvement over what we already have.
We would be better off upgrading the whole LAV III fleet to a common standard and buying a few more. 
This will just be a training and maintenance burden:
 
I think I would argue that regardless of the capabilities provided, we can't afford the CCV currently without cutting one of the navy or air force procurements entirely.

The old tankers in particular are becoming dangerous to operate; it's a nearly 50 year old high pressure steam plant that the guys don't get proper training on how to maintain them.

The sea kings are in relatively better shape due to the airworthiness maintenance requirements, but still, giant maintenance pig.

Up to the big giant heads, but seeing as we have no money, they really need to closely evaluate the actual requirements.  You could also easily argue that AOPs won't provide much bang for the buck, but that's probably better for a different thread.
 
MCG said:
Of course Nexter would object to any arguments that would see them unable to charge us a premium for what is at best a small incremental improvement over what we already have.
We would be better off upgrading the whole LAV III fleet to a common standard and buying a few more. 
This will just be a training and maintenance burden:

While Nexter is correct in their analysis of the 6.0, the hole in their argument is that their proposal doesn't meet it either; it only comes closer.

I tend to agree with your reasoning to put the money in the 6.0.  The investment in the 6.0 would probably produce the most net gain vs. the least amount of risk.  And since the 6.0 project will inevitably run out of money well before they meet all their objectives, giving the money to them seems reasonable to me.  That extra money would likely do a tonne of good with the first two years of implementation training as well.

 
 
I think GDLS has this project in the bag and it will get the go-ahead whether the army truly wants anything to do with them or not.  I think the government's real motive is to use this contract as a way to market GDLS vehicles on the international market place.  Having a 108 vehicle micro-fleet doesn't do our army a whole lot of good but it certainly serves the purpose of providing a great capability display for our defense industry to market their tech and armoured vehicles to interested foreign parties. 

Canada recently signed a contract with the Colombian Army for brand new LAV-III's so who is to say other armies looking to upgrade their armoured vehicle fleets won't come looking this way.
 
Another thought that keeps recurring is this business of managing "micro-fleets".

In what way is Canada different than Norway, Denmark, Australia, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Finland or even the UK?

All of them are managing "micro-fleets" of Tanks and IFVs, not to mention artillery systems, engineer plant and even aircraft.  They are struggling.  Yes.  But they are adapting.

The only countries that buy Heavy Armour by the bushel basket are Americans (Abrams and Bradley plants struggling to stay open) and the Chinese.

Everybody else is working to keep a minimal capability within their grasp for those occasions when it comes in handy (just like a bulldozer or crane or RTFL or Scharnhorst's axe). 

The problem seems to be the management of the available assets and a propensity for insisting that everybody be equipped as if they are at 5 minutes NTM for every mission.

Why is the army's need to manage a mixed fleet of tanks, ccvs, bulldozers and front end loaders any different than Volker-Stevins need to manage graders, dozers, asphalt strippers and layers, and excavators?

I'm not talking about the operators and their willingness to continue picking up their paycheck while taking fire.  I am wondering about the "mechanics' of procuring, supplying, maintaining and renewing a fleet of mixed bits and pieces of equipment.  Why is it so difficult?  Especially in the Canadian Forces?

It is not a unique challenge.
 
Kirkhill said:
Another thought that keeps recurring is this business of managing "micro-fleets".

In what way is Canada different than Norway, Denmark, Australia, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Finland or even the UK?

All of them are managing "micro-fleets" of Tanks and IFVs, not to mention artillery systems, engineer plant and even aircraft.  They are struggling.  Yes.  But they are adapting.

The only countries that buy Heavy Armour by the bushel basket are Americans (Abrams and Bradley plants struggling to stay open) and the Chinese.

Everybody else is working to keep a minimal capability within their grasp for those occasions when it comes in handy (just like a bulldozer or crane or RTFL or Scharnhorst's axe). 

The problem seems to be the management of the available assets and a propensity for insisting that everybody be equipped as if they are at 5 minutes NTM for every mission.

Why is the army's need to manage a mixed fleet of tanks, ccvs, bulldozers and front end loaders any different than Volker-Stevins need to manage graders, dozers, asphalt strippers and layers, and excavators?

I'm not talking about the operators and their willingness to continue picking up their paycheck while taking fire.  I am wondering about the "mechanics' of procuring, supplying, maintaining and renewing a fleet of mixed bits and pieces of equipment.  Why is it so difficult?  Especially in the Canadian Forces?

It is not a unique challenge.

It is difficult because we continue to pretend we have symmetry when it doesn't actually exist.  It is our reluctance to change the way our forces are structured which makes it difficult for us to manage these micro-fleets.  We would rather have skeleton battalions and regiments sitting in skeleton brigades then re-structure our force to align it with our present resources and capabilities.

Interestingly, the nations you mentioned above have all adapted their forces in a variety of ways to meet their present resource and equipment constraints.

For example:

The Norwegian Army has formed its Battalions into "Battlegroups" consisting of 1 Sqn of tanks, 1 Sqn of Cavalry/Recce, 2 Mech Inf Coy's. 

The Australian's are taking all their vehicles and giving them to the Armoured Corps and forming Armoured Cavalry Regiments, each with M1A1's, LAV's and Bushmaster's.  The infantry no longer have vehicles but will hitch a ride with the ACR's when req'd

The Dutch choose to specialize their forces with one of their Bde's forming a light air assault bde, akin to the Brit Armies 16th Air Assault Bde. The Dutch also have no problem disbanding units in the face of budget reductions, they are disbanding one of their infantry battalions to save money.

The Dane's reformed their army from one based around mobilization to one that is permanently available and on active duty.  They also have had no problem getting rid of units and eliminating entire brigades.



 
Kirkhill said:
Why is the army's need to manage a mixed fleet of tanks, ccvs, bulldozers and front end loaders any different than Volker-Stevins need to manage graders, dozers, asphalt strippers and layers, and excavators?
There are many things that make the challenges and requirements different.  Parts and technical information for civilian heavy equipment is not subject to ITARS.  The equipment is not the same cost, the use of standard commercial parts in the design is not the same, the availability of local qualified mechanics is not the same ...

The military operates its equipment in different places under conditions where turning to a local shop for parts is not an option nor is turning to a local mechanic for repair work an option.  Even at home, there are a lot more bulldozers and self-propelled scrapers generating a deeper pool of capable mechanics down in the industrial section of town.

The logistics is different.  Every additional fleet deployed on an operation generates its own demand for a supply of spare parts to be deployed with it.  This stresses our air lines of communication.  And when we go to the field, we need trucks to move all this parts (which means more pers in the tail).  The comercial builder does not have to worry about the global stratigic to tactical level supply chain for his equipment.
 
The Dane's also recognized they couldn't fit 8 butts into the seven seats available in the CV90 or Piranha and so they decided to reduce the section size to 6.

Then,

Noting they didn't have a very big army in any event they decided to convert all their infantry sections to 6.  The infantry could then be employed light, with M113s, Piranhas or with CV90s.

As you say Drew.  They adapt.
 
MCG said:
There are many things that make the challenges and requirements different.  Parts and technical information for civilian heavy equipment is not subject to ITARS.  The equipment is not the same cost, the use of standard commercial parts in the design is not the same, the availability of local qualified mechanics is not the same ...

The military operates its equipment in different places under conditions where turning to a local shop for parts is not an option nor is turning to a local mechanic for repair work an option.  Even at home, there are a lot more bulldozers and self-propelled scrapers generating a deeper pool of capable mechanics down in the industrial section of town.

The logistics is different.  Every additional fleet deployed on an operation generates its own demand for a supply of spare parts to be deployed with it.  This stresses our air lines of communication.  And when we go to the field, we need trucks to move all this parts (which means more pers in the tail).  The comercial builder does not have to worry about the global stratigic to tactical level supply chain for his equipment.

C'mon McG.

Perhaps you want to try that argument on These Guys and the mining industry they serve.

Or perhaps these guys

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calfrac_lg.gif

calfrac.jpg


I challenge you to determine whether that site is in Alberta, Colorado, Russia or Mongolia.

Other folks are deploying far more broadly, far more frequently with far more esoteric kit than you lot ever do.

 
Moving back a few posts, this article demonstrates that China, at least, has advanced the art of using composite materials in large vehicles. The curb weght of 4.5 tons may be a typo, but a composite vehicle is certainly going to be much lighter than an all steel one.

The gains from using lightweight construction techniques (and retrofitting them wherever possible in existing fleets) is highlighted as well. The only current vehicle using this sort of construction in service is the Korean K-21, but there is no reason that we can't delay the CCV program by asking for this sort of weight reduction as well (If we are really trying to sell vehicles using the CCV program, then this sort of R&D work would make whatever vehicle emerges quite competative on the open market). 

http://en.ce.cn/Insight/201309/16/t20130916_1508220.shtml

Lightweight car demand boosts carbon fiber market
Last Updated: 2013-09-16 15:05 | CE.cn  Save  Print  E-mail
By Liu Songbai

At the beginning of this year, China's first self-dumping truck equipped with a carriage that is made of carbon fiber composite material was completed. The truck is 8.6 meters long, with a load capacity of 50 tons and a curb weight of 4.8 tons, 29 percent lighter than a truck with a metal carriage. This marked the first successful use of composite material in the carriage of heavy-duty truck in China, signifying that China has achieved new breakthroughs in using composite materials in reducing the weight of automobiles, opening up a "blue sea" for the use of carbon fiber.

Weight reduction becoming the trend of automobile development

Automobile weight reduction refers to the reduction of the overall weight of the automobile on the precondition of guaranteeing the strength and safety performance of the automobile, so as to improve the power performance of the automobile, reduce fuel consumption, and cut down emission pollution. Researches show that if a car's weight is reduced by 10 percent, its fuel efficiency can increase by 6 to 8 percent; when the overall weight of a car is cut down by 100kg, its oil consumption per 100km will be reduced by 0.3 to 0.6 liters; a reduction of 1 percent of the weight of a car can reduce oil consumption by 0.7 percent. Besides, a reduction of 100kg in a car's weight can reduce carbon dioxide emission by about 5g per kilometer. Experts say that the auto industry is facing severe resource and environment challenges, and automobile weight reduction has become the trend of the development of the global auto industry.

A lot of hope is pinned on carbon fiber to achieve automobile weight reduction. With low energy consumption for its manufacturing, light weight, high strength, high designability, high resistance against erosion, and desirable molding effect, carbon fiber is an ideal material for automobile weight reduction, its application potential particularly huge in electric automobile.

"Weight reduction, fuel conservation, and environmental friendliness are the main efficiency index of the auto industry, therefore, the application of carbon fiber in this field has attracted great attention from states around the world and relevant companies. For instance, the USA spends about US$ 200 million every year on the execution of a five-year development plan for car bodywork weight reduction; Japan's Nissan and Honda will work with Toray to develop new carbon fiber materials for car bodywork. It is estimated that the auto industry's demand for carbon fiber may increase to 9,300 tons in 2019", said Wu Jianbo, a researcher of the Industry Planning Institute of China Machinery Marketing Academy.

For China, the significance of car weight reduction is even greater. On one hand, China is a giant automobile consumer. As of the end of 2012, China had an automobile population of 120 million units, which is increasing by 15.1 million units annually, and the trend is poised to continue. Such a large car population creates a huge pressure on energy and the environment. According to the China Low-carbon Economy Development Report released this year, automobile emission and road dust accounts for 50 percent of the source of PM2.5 in the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei Region; relevant reports released by the Ministry of Environmental Protection also show that automobile emission has become the major source of atmospheric pollution in some big and medium-sized cities. On the other hand, the Chinese government has promised to, by 2020, achieve reduction of carbon dioxide emission per unit GDP by 40 to 50 percent compared with that of 2005. This is undoubtedly a strenuous mission. "This creates a huge market for the development of carbon fiber composite material car parts", said Duan Xiaoping, president of China Chemical Fibers Association.

Chinese companies should seize the opportunity

Experts point out that China's automobile weight reduction brings a rare development opportunity. For one thing, after years' research and study, China has achieved breakthroughs in key automobile weight reduction technologies such as design and evaluation of automobile weight reduction, modularized design and application technology of fiber reinforced plastic, and integrated application of multiple weight reduction technologies for the purpose of whole-vehicle weight reduction. For another thing, policy support has been increased. China has promulgated the Development Plan for the Energy-saving and New Energy Automobile Industry (2012-2020) and the 12th Five-year Development Plan for the New Materials Industry, giving explicit encouragement to the development and application of automobile weight reduction technology; the Investment Guide for Industry Reform and Upgrading published by the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology also places automobile weight reduction on a prominent position of the auto industry.

Some companies have made excellent achievements in weight reduction. Changzhou Shenying Carbon Plastic Composite Material Co., Ltd. has spent RMB 330 million Yuan on building a production line of carbon-fiber car roof, engine cover, and bumper that has an annual production capacity of 200,000 units; Great Wall and Chery have also worked with foreign companies to promote the use of light materials.

Experts believe that with the continuous development of China's carbon fiber industry and the guiding of energy conservation, emission reduction, and car weight reduction, carbon fiber may become a leader of the "weight-losing revolution" of the auto world.

Some other notes. There are a lot of composite fibers out there besides carbon fiber with similar properties, and ceramic composite materials are also possible. Even titanium can be used, a "wet layup" process has been demonstrated that is relatively fast and cheap: http://Forums.Army.ca/forums/threads/91633/post-923922.html#msg923922.
 
Kirkhill said:
C'mon McG.

Perhaps you want to try that argument on These Guys and the mining industry they serve.

...

Other folks are deploying far more broadly, far more frequently with far more esoteric kit than you lot ever do.
And what do they spend to do it?  There is big money in mining and they will spend what we cannot afford.

... and yes, my argument that the equipment is not subject to ITARs is still accurate.  That means far few restrictions on who can be qualified to fix it, and far few restrictions on supply and handling parts.
 
MCG said:
And what do they spend to do it?  There is big money in mining and they will spend what we cannot afford.

... and yes, my argument that the equipment is not subject to ITARs is still accurate.  That means far few restrictions on who can be qualified to fix it, and far few restrictions on supply and handling parts.

OK.

So your concerns are budget and security.

Since neither of us know the budget for such a camp let's set our assumptions aside.  You assume that it is very expensive.  I wonder how it compares to the budget for, for example, the HQ for a Divisional level Joint Exercise.  I think it is worth testing as a paper exercise.

On the security front - surely that can be managed?

Are there any ITAR problems with tires, tracks, transmissions or engines?  Water purifiers?  Tents?  Generators?

EO/Wpns/LCIS I can see being different matters and while they may encompass the biggest dollars are they the biggest contributors to support PYs?

 
Kirkhill said:
Are there any ITAR problems with tires, tracks, transmissions or engines?  Water purifiers?  Tents?  Generators?

Unfortunately we (the military) don't make the ITAR/CTAT regulations.  Empty ammo cans are controlled goods and cannot be passed to uncleared civilians to work on.
 
AmmoTech90 said:
Unfortunately we (the military) don't make the ITAR/CTAT regulations.  Empty ammo cans are controlled goods and cannot be passed to uncleared civilians to work on.

OK.  I Give.  :)
 
Kirkhill said:
OK.  I Give.  :)

On the plus side the US is currently updating their ITAR list to make it more focused on actual weapon systems and ammo and excluded a lot of the nuts and bolts that were in there before (not an exaggeration, had an actual bolt catalogued as ITAR because it was used to hold down an ITAR cabinet).

Controlled goods is different then ITAR though, and includes all the other NATO and other restrictions, some of which are similar to ITAR.  In general though, it's easy to get cleared to handle CG; but one of the secondary reasons for ITAR is that R&O activities generally go back to the OEM, so it keeps a lot of the ongoing repair work in the US.
 
Yea you mean I might actually be able to order grip screws for a Sig from the US now? Now I can Allah ackbar without duct tape.
 
Sure, as soon as the Dept of State pushes the changes through congress and the senate!  :facepalm:
 
I don't like the sound of that.
Cancelation would be a good thing.
 
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