CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[Eye In The Sky]

My take and a nickel is still $0.05

Mine “might” be worth a dime!

 

[Good2Golf]

The family is pissed about losing the most of the business. From third largest jet maker in the world to just Globals. They still blame Boeing for the demise.

You sure about that? Their profit margin is up now that they’ve streamlined to biz jets only.

You would have two "Canadian" made planes vs Boeing. The press would go to town. And yes they did not respond to the RFP so its not going to happen.

Just a crazy what if.

Pretty sure that by the numbers, Boeing employs more Canadians in Canada than does Airbus.

 

[Spencer100]

You sure about that? Their profit margin is up now that they’ve streamlined to biz jets only.



Pretty sure that by the numbers, Boeing employs more Canadians in Canada than does Airbus.

I agree on the profitable part. But where is the growth going to come from?

And I'm sure there is a feeling of loss, going from the second largest train manufacturer and the third largest airframer.


FYI
Boeing 1500+ employees

Boeing Canada - Backgrounder

www.boeing.ca

Airbus 4000+ employees

https://www.airbus.com/en/who-we-are/our-worldwide-presence/airbus-in-americas/airbus-in-canada

 

[KevinB]

I agree on the profitable part. But where is the growth going to come from?

And I'm sure there is a feeling of loss, going from the second largest train manufacturer and the third largest airframer.


FYI
Boeing 1500+ employees

Boeing Canada - Backgrounder

www.boeing.ca

Airbus 4000+ employees

https://www.airbus.com/en/who-we-are/our-worldwide-presence/airbus-in-americas/airbus-in-canada

Ah yes the 295...
Well I see how well that worked out for the RCAF

 

[Good2Golf]

I agree on the profitable part. But where is the growth going to come from?

And I'm sure there is a feeling of loss, going from the second largest train manufacturer and the third largest airframer.


FYI
Boeing 1500+ employees

Boeing Canada - Backgrounder

www.boeing.ca

Airbus 4000+ employees

https://www.airbus.com/en/who-we-are/our-worldwide-presence/airbus-in-americas/airbus-in-canada

I must have been thinking $, vice people. Boeing worth $6.7B annually within its supply chain in Canada — Airbus worth $2B in Canada. I suppose Airbus has a more efficient $-to-votes ratio…

Ah yes the 295...
Well I see how well that worked out for the RCAF

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We are not alone in fumbling the ball, my guess this is mostly a USAF fumble.

How Soon Can U.S. Air Force’s E-7A Rapid Prototype Be Ready? | Aviation Week Network

Boeing says it is moving as fast as possible on the service’s E-7, amid Pentagon and congressional pressure.

aviationweek.com

"Boeing says it is moving as fast as it can. The first two test aircraft are not due to be delivered until 2027. Now the focus is on finding funding to bring on the rest of the fleet as soon as possible. This is happening just as the 31-aircraft E-3 fleet is being retired, leaving a capability gap for the airborne early warning and control mission."

 

[Spencer100]

Ah yes the 295...
Well I see how well that worked out for the RCAF

Well we are getting the Airbus VVIP transports.....with maybe refueling systems sometime in the future...

Plus we did pay billions for the development of the A220.

 

[Spencer100]

We are not alone in fumbling the ball, my guess this is mostly a USAF fumble.

How Soon Can U.S. Air Force’s E-7A Rapid Prototype Be Ready? | Aviation Week Network

Boeing says it is moving as fast as possible on the service’s E-7, amid Pentagon and congressional pressure.

aviationweek.com

"Boeing says it is moving as fast as it can. The first two test aircraft are not due to be delivered until 2027. Now the focus is on finding funding to bring on the rest of the fleet as soon as possible. This is happening just as the 31-aircraft E-3 fleet is being retired, leaving a capability gap for the airborne early warning and control mission."

Or you can buy 3 for the price of 5.

UK forced to pay for five radars despite cutting Wedgetail order

The UK must pay for all five MESA radars despite reducing the order of E-7 Wedgetail aircraft to three.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

 

[Spencer100]

There will be a need for a new C17 type aircraft at some point. Not to mention we need gravel runway capable airliners as I understand the last of the 737 modified for that have been retired.

Bombardier or Canada doesn't have the capability to design a new beast of an airlifter. The CS100 now the A220 almost bankrupted them. And the engineers and talent is been spread accross multiple companies. Airbus, MHI, DHC, Spirit etc.

There is a hole in the market for a large aircraft but not much going on in the segment. Have read the US is worried about any airlifter surviving the flight accross the Pacific.

 

[suffolkowner]

Well with the recent lessons learned from the Ukraine conflict perhaps bombardier should be building Loitering munitions or a new class of recce drone?

the Iranian ones already use their engines

 

[Spencer100]

the Iranian ones already use their engines

To pick the nit....they use BRP Rotax engines. Not Bombardier....they not the same company any more for over 10 years.

 

[Good2Golf]

Nothing is Bombardier now except business jets…so I don’t buy any ‘diversifying’ argumentation about Bombardier wanting to be bigger. They want what the shareholders want which is EPS…

 

[KevinB]

We are not alone in fumbling the ball, my guess this is mostly a USAF fumble.

How Soon Can U.S. Air Force’s E-7A Rapid Prototype Be Ready? | Aviation Week Network

Boeing says it is moving as fast as possible on the service’s E-7, amid Pentagon and congressional pressure.

aviationweek.com

"Boeing says it is moving as fast as it can. The first two test aircraft are not due to be delivered until 2027. Now the focus is on finding funding to bring on the rest of the fleet as soon as possible. This is happening just as the 31-aircraft E-3 fleet is being retired, leaving a capability gap for the airborne early warning and control mission."

The smart play would have been fielding some flat E-7’s and then transitioning the fleet to 7A’s once that model is completed.

 

[Spencer100]

Nothing is Bombardier now except business jets…so I don’t buy any ‘diversifying’ argumentation about Bombardier wanting to be bigger. They want what the shareholders want which is EPS…

As a shareholder too I agree.

But they did say they want grow the defence and military business. As it one of the only areas they can grow by using their platforms. And littke capital. They don't have the ability to grow top line or profit any where else.

With geopolitics in flux, Bombardier CEO plans to expand company’s military aviation products

The Montreal-based company renamed its special aircraft division Bombardier Defense this year, as government defence budgets climb

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[RDBZ]

The smart play would have been fielding some flat E-7’s and then transitioning the fleet to 7A’s once that model is completed.

I suspect those USAF specific changes are pretty modest as stated.

The open architecture battle management system has already been tested on RAAF aircraft and presumably scheduled in the current upgrade program. The two "prototypes" may be more about very clearly defining and agreeing what Boeing is going to produce for the remaining 24 aircraft.

 

[suffolkowner]

To pick the nit....they use BRP Rotax engines. Not Bombardier....they not the same company any more for over 10 years.

different company just split off , same people. Bombardier bit off more they could chew but should have dumped the rail a long time ago

 

[dimsum]

We are not alone in fumbling the ball, my guess this is mostly a USAF fumble.

How Soon Can U.S. Air Force’s E-7A Rapid Prototype Be Ready? | Aviation Week Network

Boeing says it is moving as fast as possible on the service’s E-7, amid Pentagon and congressional pressure.

aviationweek.com

"Boeing says it is moving as fast as it can. The first two test aircraft are not due to be delivered until 2027. Now the focus is on finding funding to bring on the rest of the fleet as soon as possible. This is happening just as the 31-aircraft E-3 fleet is being retired, leaving a capability gap for the airborne early warning and control mission."

I was wondering what the main differences were in the USAF versions:

The U.S. versions will be based largely on the UK’s, with adjustments planned for satellite communication, military-code GPS, cybersecurity and program protection requirements.

And in a twist, USAF folks are going elsewhere to train. Next headline: 60 USAF members apply to the RAAF to join 2 Sqn

The Air Force in late February awarded an initial prototype contract worth up to $1.2 billion to start the work. The service is resigned to the fact that the initial prototypes will not be delivered for four years and is looking at ways to speed up testing and training. This includes the Air Force Operational Test and Evaluation Center working with the Royal Australian Air Force and the UK’s Royal Air Force (RAF) to meet certain test points so they only have to trial U.S.-specific systems. Up to 60 U.S. Air Force personnel are deploying to Australia this spring to train.

 

[MTShaw]

As a shareholder too I agree.

But they did say they want grow the defence and military business. As it one of the only areas they can grow by using their platforms. And littke capital. They don't have the ability to grow top line or profit any where else.

With geopolitics in flux, Bombardier CEO plans to expand company’s military aviation products

The Montreal-based company renamed its special aircraft division Bombardier Defense this year, as government defence budgets climb

www.theglobeandmail.com

They should have thought of that before the CMMA was going to be released. And the government wasn’t exactly cryptic in the launching of the program.

Sure, for the next round or for the next AEW platform, sure. But Canada doesn’t have the time fiddle around with an opportunist French company played. And neither do the Americans. Davie was let into the NSS because they had proven they cold make a great product for Canadian defense. Bombardier needs to do the same.

 

[CBH99]

Sorry, my brain is unique. I was referring to how the price of the went from $9 billion to $40 billion making its price to high for the Harper government.

Ah, gotcha



It's a good thing we didn't buy them when Harper was PM! I think we can all look back at this and chuckle that our extremely drawn out competitions can sometimes be hidden blessings...

We'd have 65 F-35 jets that would almost be an outdated & non-upgradeable orphan fleet among the world's F-35 operators, and we'd have paid roughly $130m per copy...yikes!

 

[CBH99]

They should have thought of that before the CMMA was going to be released. And the government wasn’t exactly cryptic in the launching of the program.

Sure, for the next round or for the next AEW platform, sure. But Canada doesn’t have the time fiddle around with an opportunist French company played. And neither do the Americans. Davie was let into the NSS because they had proven they cold make a great product for Canadian defense. Bombardier needs to do the same.

100% agreed on every point.

if Bombardier wants to get into the civil-military aircraft market as it see's some potential growth into those markets? Great!

(Took long enough, and a few countries to take their products & modify them themselves...)


They have to earn it.

They are also in a very advantageous position in that for Canadian orders on almost anything, they have ample heads up on a project's general desired outcome (is SAR aircraft replacement)