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Combat Boots policy 2018-CANFORGEN 127/18

Weinie

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Having known people in other militaries, I agree with you. The US Marines are constantly complaining about kit as well; they often feel their kit is typically not as good as the US Army however it's still miles above the CAF.

I don't think there's any doubt that the CAF issues better equipment than most 2nd and 3rd world countries.

That being said, if you look at the British, US, Australians, Germans, etc. it would be hard to argue that what we're procuring is acceptable. I mean the rain jackets aren't even waterproof after a few uses in the field, the boots fall apart, and the field gear is really lacking to say the least.
At what point does "lowest bidder" start to have ramifications.
 

MilEME09

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At what point does "lowest bidder" start to have ramifications.
Lowest bidder should be a major consideration, if the government can shell out billions for covid relief, they can fork over an extra million or two to get a quality boot maker.
 

Navy_Pete

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At what point does "lowest bidder" start to have ramifications.
Lowest technically compliant bidder.... it has ramifications as soon as your tech requirements in the contract don't meet the actually demand. That can be really hard to get right, especially for something like footwear that is really a personal preference and depends on a lot on your biomechanics as well. It's an approach that works great for buying widgets with a clear requirement and known usage, but kind of useless here. There are other approaches, but we have some pretty clear restrictions from PSPC and require the selection criteria to be clear and objective. Doing some kind of buy and try could work, but you would need a lot and if we get a bad set of boots in the mix could mess up a lot of people in the trials, and also would mean we'd probably buy hundreds of different boots to try it out.

Honestly we'd be better off just giving recruits some money before they show up and tell them they have to buy two sets of boots that meet bootforgen rules. The number of people with stress fractures in their feet with this companies first effort was crazy, and a lot of that was just with rucking in basic; 6-8 weeks of salary to recover plus the treatment pays for a pretty high quality boot (which we did anyway, because the cheap boots broke their feet).
 

RedFive

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I'm a decade into this organization and have still never been issued my actual full scale of kit.
 

Kilted

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Honestly we'd be better off just giving recruits some money before they show up and tell them they have to buy two sets of boots that meet bootforgen rules. The number of people with stress fractures in their feet with this companies first effort was crazy, and a lot of that was just with rucking in basic; 6-8 weeks of salary to recover plus the treatment pays for a pretty high quality boot (which we did anyway, because the cheap boots broke their feet).
Compared to some of the other stupid things you see in the first few weeks of BMQ, I could see that going very badly.
 

MilEME09

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Compared to some of the other stupid things you see in the first few weeks of BMQ, I could see that going very badly.
I agree, issuing boots to recruits is a lot easier then tracking who needs reimbursement, and not all recruits can afford the buy boots right away.
 

PuckChaser

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Does wish.com have a BOOTFORGEN section?
 

SeaKingTacco

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I was more concerned with what kind of boots they might show up with.
The simple solution is for CANEX in the Mega to stock a good selection of approved boots. Each recruit gets marched in there by section/platoon and they get to pick two pairs. If it is under the approved limit, they get charged to the Crown. If they are over the limit, the recruit pays the difference.
 

Navy_Pete

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Compared to some of the other stupid things you see in the first few weeks of BMQ, I could see that going very badly.
Yeah, me too, but our current approach is already going very badly just in a different way. SKTs CANEX solution would be great if we could get CANEX onboard, but imagine there are probably some arms length rules that we have to follow.

On the flip side I had a pair of tactical boots that I picked up at the PX that were amazing; can't remember the brand, but the felt like hightop running shoes and made for great hiking boots. I beat the heck out of those for 5 years and think they were lost in a move before I could wear them out. They were less than $100.
 

dimsum

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Yeah, me too, but our current approach is already going very badly just in a different way. SKTs CANEX solution would be great if we could get CANEX onboard, but imagine there are probably some arms length rules that we have to follow.

On the flip side I had a pair of tactical boots that I picked up at the PX that were amazing; can't remember the brand, but the felt like hightop running shoes and made for great hiking boots. I beat the heck out of those for 5 years and think they were lost in a move before I could wear them out. They were less than $100.
Now that "tan" is an approved colour, I'm just glad that I can wear my Belleville tan boots in Canada.
 

PuckChaser

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The simple solution is for CANEX in the Mega to stock a good selection of approved boots. Each recruit gets marched in there by section/platoon and they get to pick two pairs. If it is under the approved limit, they get charged to the Crown. If they are over the limit, the recruit pays the difference.
You put that damn common sense away before someone makes it through BMQ without having thier feet destroyed by garbage Royer boots.
 

MJP

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The simple solution is for CANEX in the Mega to stock a good selection of approved boots. Each recruit gets marched in there by section/platoon and they get to pick two pairs. If it is under the approved limit, they get charged to the Crown. If they are over the limit, the recruit pays the difference.
It would be an interesting way of doing it, finding a way to replicate that success across Canada especially for the PRes BMQ not held near major bases would be an obstacle to overcome. Not impossible though

At the end of the day we still need some GP type of boot in stock for emergency purposes, I would prefer it not be Royer though :)
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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The problem with boots is that is that, on the one hand, you want national production so you can both have some emergency stock in hand and be able to ramp up production in case of sustained emergency and on the other hand, it is one of those products that is near impossible to write bidding specs for to determine compliance against.

So, IMHO, this is one of those cases where we abandon the "call-for-tender/lowest compliant bidding" approach. What I think should be done is the following: Whenever a new booth order is required, the CAF goes around to the various Canadian manufacturers and purchase 100 "samples" of the boot that manufacturer makes that is of the proper style and colour, say ten each in ten different sizes. When the CAF has five or six hundred such boots (from 5 or 6 manufacturers) they are issued for two months to various personnel and evaluated at the end of the period. The ones that turn out crappy, you simply deselect as "non-compliant". All the ones that are found to be satisfactory, you invite the manufacturer to bid on the whole production, then and only then, you pick the lowest bidder of the ones that were invited to bid - on the understanding that you keep the "samples" for comparison of the product actually delivered (just to keep it honest).
 

SeaKingTacco

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The problem with boots is that is that, on the one hand, you want national production so you can both have some emergency stock in hand and be able to ramp up production in case of sustained emergency and on the other hand, it is one of those products that is near impossible to write bidding specs for to determine compliance against.

So, IMHO, this is one of those cases where we abandon the "call-for-tender/lowest compliant bidding" approach. What I think should be done is the following: Whenever a new booth order is required, the CAF goes around to the various Canadian manufacturers and purchase 100 "samples" of the boot that manufacturer makes that is of the proper style and colour, say ten each in ten different sizes. When the CAF has five or six hundred such boots (from 5 or 6 manufacturers) they are issued for two months to various personnel and evaluated at the end of the period. The ones that turn out crappy, you simply deselect as "non-compliant". All the ones that are found to be satisfactory, you invite the manufacturer to bid on the whole production, then and only then, you pick the lowest bidder of the ones that were invited to bid - on the understanding that you keep the "samples" for comparison of the product actually delivered (just to keep it honest).
Or you invite all the “compliant” bidders to stock boots at CANEX. If their boots are good- the troops will buy them, they get paid and the boot makers have incentive to maintain/improve quality.
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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I am only talking about the emergency stocks that the CAF wants to keep in hand, not the individual ongoing users needs that are still covered by the BOOTFORGEN.
 

Zoomie

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BOOTFORGEN is transitory and a stop gap in its nature and design. Eventually boots will be stocked on Logistik and we will be back to wearing what ever boot meets the SOR. Everyone lost their proverbial shit with this Royer announcement - evidently no one read the CANFORGEN where it clearly stated that buying your own boots was temporary…
 
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