• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Combat support unit defence questions

Colin Parkinson

Army.ca Myth
Reaction score
9,226
Points
1,160
I know from discussions on other sites that the Combat support units both regular and reserves have been having difficulty getting training and support to practice their combat skills. From my time at base support and working for 1 Svc Bat in Germany that the amount of fire power for defence in these units is minimal. Also I understand that it is difficult in the reserves to get the time and ammunition to keep fighting skills up.

Here are some questions for the Combat support types here both reserves and regular:

Are the lessons being learned in Iraq regarding the protection and defence of support units being learned , disseminated and put into practice?

Are units receiving any extra equipment?

Any changes in training?

Has NDHQ even figured out that this is a problem?

I am thinking of questions I can ask the various candidates during the next election. thanks
 
Purely from a Reserves point of view. I haven‘t seem any lessons learned from Iraq yet. No we haven‘t received any extra equipment, no changes to training. There is a question on whether we might be able to get any linked ammo.
 
Lessons learnt (Medical Corps and Logistics) from Iraq yes. Deseminated yes. Put into practice. No.

Extra equipment. No

Changes in training. Well... we were going to, but it never unfolded due to "operational tempo". Hummm... and I thought there was never a better time to train then before an operation... foolish me. I did get to go do the Army Tactical Operations Course - Combat Service Support. We looked at Defence of CSS units quite a bit. Good insight from the Log Major and the US Army guy who just got back from Iraq. There seems to be an interest in defence of CSS units, just no solid doctrine or training plans.

NDHQ figued out the problem.... I suspect so. I hope so. Once they have figured out the problem do they know the next step to take. No. Have they taken it, No. Win some loose some eh? A good place to start would be with DAT putting out a B-GL-XXX on CSS Defence in Battle.

MC.
 
In the Reserve Med world nothing from the iraq experience has filtered down to us. We still have nothing heavier than C-7‘s to defend ourselves with and still don‘t have any ammunition (live/blank) to train with. We are only authorized currently to train to level 1 of the PWT which is 25 rds from the 100m point. Don‘t fire ‘til ya see the whites of their eyes boys!!!

We‘ve always been taught to rely on the support of other local units for our defence, though in today‘s non-linear battlefield that‘s not always an option. The Svc Bn was always supposed to be responsible for rear area security with assets diverted from other tasks or in reserve.

Our defence on the move has always been "drive through the **** and re-org the survivors on the other side. Medical units have never been high on the priority for escorts. Iwas however once taught by an Eastern unit to stop the vehicles in the ambush, unload any casualties from the ambs, and then return fire. Peals of derisive laughter, Bruce.
 
From my unit‘s experience in IRAQ, CSSB-18 Maint. Co, Ord Weap Maint Plt. For defensive operations with had the minimum of 2 man Fighting Holes, in a layered perimeter, with a dedicated guard, the QRF was everybody else with M-16‘s(M249, M240G, M2, AT4‘s) , and in one case the tank mechs towed a disabled abrams, that‘s about it.
Now CSSB-22 while in Nasiriyah, had 9ft sand berms for perimeters with sand-bagged fighting positions, and were able to repel light infantry attacks.
I would say we should have focused more attention on training for convoy security actions/reactions and recovery missions tactics. Rather than platoon infantry tactics and Urban ops.
 
At my unit we have started to disseminate this info we have put into place an SOP on convoy operations.  By adopting this doctrine the CF will have to revamp our current doctrine to take into account the new non-linear battlefield.
 
It's not exactly new.  If you could find them, there are probably SOPs dating from the North African campaign 1940-1943 on how to run escorted and unescorted convoys through unsecured territory.
 
That is correct the SOP's are not new they are the SOP that the Americains are know using since the 507 Maint unit got ambushed in Iraq.  And know the CF are adopting these SOP's.  The Non-linear battlefield is  more often seen now then what was seen in the 2nd World war.  During the 2nd World war the front line were  defined.
 
For people from the 32 brigade I can say Yes its being put into practice...

Convoy drills and practice have been important to keep up on especially for the CSS guys/girls.

At EX SG 04 the maintainers did more stand to's and defensives then most of the rest of the units that attended.

As for equiptment.

For this Ex, which was the biggest on hand in a while something like 2600 soldiers on the ground, maintainers and admin guys had 2 mags and thats it.
 
Be careful.
Just because things are done on EX doesn't mean that they're correct...
The tactical level doctrine has not changed (yet).
This is mainly because, when conducted properly, the doctrine is robust enough to handle the situation.
Some adaptions may be made but I don't think it's going to change greatly.
Operational level doctrine is evolving to cope with the non-linear, non-contiguous battlefield.
LFCA is already knee-deep in these changes so stay tuned.

Cheers
AM
 
Came across this article.  Thought it might be appropriate to this discussion.

http://www.dod.mil/news/Sep2004/n09102004_2004091008.html

'Rat Patrol' Secures Afghan Mission
By Sgt. Frank Magni, USA
Special to American Forces Press Service

KANDAHAR AIRFIELD, Afghanistan, Sept. 10, 2004 â “â “ Their name is inspired by a '60s television show, and their concept by the movie "The Dirty Dozen," but there is nothing staged about what this band of cooks, medics, mechanics, and supply and communication specialists are doing at Kandahar Airfield.

Army Sgt. 1st Class Mark Danley, the "Rat Patrol" platoon sergeant, communicates with a local man while clearing traffic for a convoy he is escorting. Photo by Sgt. Frank Magni, USA
(Click photo for screen- resolution image); "We have basically taken soldiers from different (military occupational specialties) and military backgrounds, put them together and begun conducting (security) missions with them," said Capt. Robert Horn, the unit's commander.
Although their non-traditional mission began when the unit hit Afghanistan, their training started when the unit's leaders realized some of the support services were already taken care of in Afghanistan, said Horn.

"We knew that food service was contracted to civilians in Afghanistan, so we were looking for an alternate mission for our cooks," he said. "But we found we had other soldiers interested in doing something different."

Not really knowing what the ultimate role of the Rat Patrol would be, the unit began conducting training in Hawaii that would prepare them for a wide variety of missions.

The training began with weapons familiarization and broader use. Rat Patrol soldiers learned how to proficiently operate the M-2 .50 caliber and M-240B machine guns, as well as the M-249 squad automatic weapon, said Horn.

They then conducted convoy live-fire exercises, in addition to day, night and grenade ranges. The group also trained on advanced land navigation and scout- observation tactics.

Finally, they tested their skills in combat simulators and performed a security role in training exercises leading up to the deployment.

"Not a lot of headquarters units get the chance to do the extensive training necessary for this type of role," said Horn. "But our chain of command was supportive and the troops were really motivated to make it happen."

The Rat Patrol's first missions were convoy escorts and pulling security for forward arming and refueling points. They were also responsible for escorting engineer convoys to Forward Operating Base Tiger, where they provided perimeter security.

"They never ceased to amaze me," said Horn. "They have shown nothing but flare, professionalism and experience above what was initially expected of them."

He said one of the main factors that contributed to the success of the Rat Patrol was the unit's leadership and ability to bring their diverse backgrounds together.

Army Sgt. 1st Class Mark Danley, the Rat Patrol platoon sergeant, is a 12-year veteran of the infantry. He said he never doubted any of the soldiers' ability to perform in a combat role, but the training they performed was just an extension of what they already knew. "It just goes to show that practicing the basic combat skills pays off," said Danley.

He said the patrol has even showed him strengths he didn't expect. "It is kind of convenient that each one of our guys has skills that come in handy," he said. "If we have a (vehicle) break down, a mechanic is right there."

Even with the new mission, they continue to support the rest of the squadron in their traditional roles, said Horn. For example, the motor pool here has more of a workload than when they're at home station. "They not only maintain the equipment we initially brought over here, but the fleet of up-armored Humvees the unit added in Afghanistan," Danley said.

In the future, the patrol will also have the additional responsibility of escorting medical missions coordinated and sponsored by the squadron. "The demand for them (the patrol) is non-stop," said Horn. "But they rise to every challenge put in front of them."

"I'm just proud that I can do my part over here," said Army Spc. Hansel Davis, a cook and Rat Patrol member. "This is just my shot to do something more."

Whether his unit is just a unique combination of soldiers and circumstances or every headquarters unit in the Army has a Rat Patrol of their own, Horn said he has always known that every soldier is a rifleman, and his unit proves it every day.

(Army Sgt. Frank Magni is a member of the 17th Public Affairs Detachment.)






News Archive

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Printer-friendly Version
Email A Copy


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Hi all,

this is a issue that I have a great interest in, I am the S4 for the New Zealands Army 2nd Logistic Battalion. I have spent most of this year working with the New Zealands army's 1st Battalion in developing its 1st line CSS organisation to support our newly acquired LAV3's. The whole issue on defending CSS assets has until recently being paid lip service by the New Zealand army and it is only recently with the lessons learnt from Iraq and Afghanistan that CASS security has started to be taken seriously, after all it is no good having a fleet of top of the line LAV 3's as your teeth, if the tail is naked.

The good news is that very soon (within 12months) I will be receiving 4 armoured Pinzgauers, to provide a QRF and convoy escort capability for the Logistic battalion. The problem at the moment is that there any manpower to man these assets will have to be from within the battalions current strength, and there is no Doctrine to guide their employment.

I am slowly developing TTPs for the use of this new capability, and are confidant that within 6 months I will have some solid SOP's developed. If any one can provide any feed back, lessons learnt, personal experiences, SOP's and TTP's I would be extremely grateful.

My main areas of concern at present are, convoy protection and RF drills.

Thanks on advance

Rob Mickie
 
Any changes in training? Yes

1 Svc Bn has and is currently perfecting actions on drills. We are in the midst of changing the doctrine on how we Trucker's do business. We have implemented the "Gun Truck" a HLVW with a min of 1 x C-6 (mounted on a base in the center of the box) 4 x C-9's and 3 x C-7's....With the "Gun Truck" commander up in the cab's hatch opting for a C-7 or a C-9. We have even gone as far as beefing up an Iltis as a scout veh with a couple of C-9's. When I went to Borden on my 5's it was interesting to take a step back in my trg and do the old actions on drills...especially when it will be changing country wide in the near future.

 
2 Svc Bn has actually taken a bigger step forward in the "actions on drills". As we learned from Roto 0 Op Athena. We are now using Armoured Vehicles as our Convoy Escorts. The Bisons offer more protection then the Soft skin vehicles. Our Concepts have proven to be a lot more effective in the busy streets of Kabul. We also have tested in actual Live Fire scenarios different ways in Dismounting if need be, in order to counterattack an Ambush. Many of the drills we are using still come from the "old way" however keeping the threat of mines always on our minds when dismounting of course. Like any drills we have utilized there are always Pro's and Con's. If anyone is interested in knowing more on how "Truckers are doing business" Let me know, would love to discuss this as it is actually becoming my bread and butter.

Peace
 
MSE_OP18,
The trg that 1 SVC BN is implementing, is basically just the ground work for "action on drills". We both know that for 1: each theatre is different, and 2: you can't always use the same tactics in every theatre. Do you remember the "actions on drills" in Borden? (BEEP BEEP) 1 SVC BN is just trying to provide better and more up to date doctrine to the school. The Bn is just changing the basics. The basics prior to work up training. And part of those basics do include AFV's (Armoured Fighting Vehicles) and Bisons in our packets/convoys. Including the roll in and roll out of AFV's into the packet on the move, to simulate moving into more hostile areas where armoured protection is paramount. Hey by the way...Merry Christmas & Happy New Year, and you guys be safe on the next Roto!

Nil Sine Labore.

Cheers  :mg:
 
I think this is long overdue. I was fortunate to play quite an important role in these drills that we have rehearsed over the last several months. The AFV's included with us play a huge role. I disagree with you on each theatre is different they are all similiar, its the "situation" that is always different. Now knowing and actually using the AFV's within our convoys is has made our job as "Truckers" even more important. As now we are not just concentrating on moving pers or equipment from one point to another but we are also "Escorting" these convoys with AFV's and G-wagon's and now this takes more manner power. Overall I like this way far better then the old as you said (Beep-Beep). I think its about time that "Truckers" get some good recognition. Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to you as well.
 
Here is a US Army Gun Truck solution:

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/10427810.htm

GW
 
Personally I think very little consideration is put on how to quickly react under fire while moving. My favorate example of this lack of oversight is where the rifle rack for the middle passenger in the LSVW is ???

 
Unless the rifle rack interferes with using your weapon while it is in your hands it shouldn't matter where it is.  If there is a slight chance you may need your weapon pax shouldn't be racking them at all.
 
In a hostile area your weapons are never put in a storage rack. You must always have them near the ready when possible. Always stay Vigilant. That is how the Wpn rack issue is resolved.
 
Back
Top