Current Dress Regs

[Halifax Tar]

@Furniture

We shut that down at our dinners. Who knows if someone has a medical issue or social anxiety? Why make someone uncomfortable because they need to perform a routine bodily function?

I never had a problem with singing or any other ritual embarrassment to go to the washroom, but I also know that I'm a lot more comfortable in front of a crowd than the average person.

I love mess dinners, they can be a lot of fun. But I am glad to see some of the stiffness of them fading away. Personally I think they should be a much more open affair, inclusive of spouses/partners and more relaxed. I know that's more like dinning in; maybe that's the direction we should be moving.

I also think its strange that we worry about people's social sensitivities and comfort levels.

If some good natured public ribbing is a bridge to far the CAF probably isn't the right fit for them. If that's too much, I really don't trust sending them into a burning or flooding compartment and keeping their composure and doing their duty.

 

[Remius]

We shut that down at our dinners. Who knows if someone has a medical issue or social anxiety? Why make someone uncomfortable because they need to perform a routine bodily function?

I never had a problem with singing or any other ritual embarrassment to go to the washroom, but I also know that I'm a lot more comfortable in front of a crowd than the average person.

Well that’s why my caveat says event dependent. We have senior NCO events or unit only events with good humoured ribbing and commentary. Like at one event where we typically boo the RSM when he’s introduced. Other more solemn affairs like more traditional commemorative things or with outside guests and it will be less so.

We had a former general come speak at one event and he commented on how we had just the right mix of formality and relaxed jovial atmosphere. That is what we should be aiming for.

 

[ModlrMike]

This is why I like the dinners at my unit. Good natured fun, a break to use the heads, and no mind numbing speeches.

 

[Kilted]

I love mess dinners, they can be a lot of fun. But I am glad to see some of the stiffness of them fading away. Personally I think they should be a much more open affair, inclusive of spouses/partners and more relaxed. I know that's more like dinning in; maybe that's the direction we should be moving.

I also think its strange that we worry about people's social sensitivities and comfort levels.

If some good natured public ribbing is a bridge to far the CAF probably isn't the right fit for them. If that's too much, I really don't trust sending them into a burning or flooding compartment and keeping their composure and doing their duty.

It isn't really a mess dinner if significant others are invited. My mess did it once. We had a few people who refused to come because they felt that it was inappropriate for their significant other to attend.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It isn't really a mess dinner if significant others are invited. My mess did it once. We had a few people who refused to come because they felt that it was inappropriate for their significant other to attend.

There used to be 'Ladies Nights', or whatever the politically correct term is these days.

They were always done poorly with one speaker at one such event using the memorable term 'camp follower' in his toast to the ladies.

A truly spectacularly awful moment which, despite the horror, I'm glad I was there to see

 

[OldSolduer]

It isn't really a mess dinner if significant others are invited. My mess did it once. We had a few people who refused to come because they felt that it was inappropriate for their significant other to attend.

In that case its term was "Mixed Dining In" where significant others attended. The rules were relaxed for the benefit of the significant others. Actually they were more fun than the Mess Dinner.

 

[Furniture]

I love mess dinners, they can be a lot of fun. But I am glad to see some of the stiffness of them fading away. Personally I think they should be a much more open affair, inclusive of spouses/partners and more relaxed. I know that's more like dinning in; maybe that's the direction we should be moving.

I think there is room for both type of events, but I definitely would like to see more "Dining In" events. I think messes need to evolve to be more welcoming to families when we have events.

I also think its strange that we worry about people's social sensitivities and comfort levels.

If some good natured public ribbing is a bridge to far the CAF probably isn't the right fit for them. If that's too much, I really don't trust sending them into a burning or flooding compartment and keeping their composure and doing their duty.

I completely disagree. What a person can handle, and what a person chooses to expose themselves to are very different things.

Mess events are supposed to be enjoyable for people, not something to be endured. As an example, I can physically dance, but I choose to not dance as I do not enjoy it (until about 8 beers deep). If the mess hosts an event that requires members to dance, I will choose to not attend, because I don't enjoy it. The same applies to "ribbing" for others. They can handle it, but if it isn't something they enjoy, why should we expect them to endure it?

Well that’s why my caveat says event dependent. We have senior NCO events or unit only events with good humoured ribbing and commentary. Like at one event where we typically boo the RSM when he’s introduced. Other more solemn affairs like more traditional commemorative things or with outside guests and it will be less so.

I think it's more fair to say mess and event dependant. When you are dealing with a unit mess where members all know one another it's an entirely different beast than a base mess where people may have never met one another before. The NDHQ C & POs/WO & Sgts mess has about 1100 members, most of whom don't know or work with one another...

 

[Furniture]

The rules are pretty clear on when mess kit can be worn. Fancy parties are not actually authorized.

To your point though, people do wear it at places they shouldn’t.

You're actually incorrect on this count.

Dress instructions | Annex A Categories and orders of dress - Canada.ca

MESS DRESS
(Mess Standard)	No. 2	Formal evening functions such as: mess dinners; other formal mess functions; and service and civilian occasions where formal attire would be deemed appropriate, for example, formal receptions, dinners and weddings which occur in the evening.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You're actually incorrect on this count.

Dress instructions | Annex A Categories and orders of dress - Canada.ca

Thinking about some of the retired, overbearing, socio-pathic egotists who will now abuse this to the full ....

 

[Remius]

You're actually incorrect on this count.

Dress instructions | Annex A Categories and orders of dress - Canada.ca

Except:

17.06 - WEARING OF UNIFORM - RESTRICTION​

(1) Except that an officer or non-commissioned member may wear a military uniform of obsolete pattern that is not likely to be confused with current dress, no member shall wear any part of military uniform at a fancy dress ball.

(2) No member of the Reserve Force shall wear uniform except when:

1. on service; or
2. attending a military entertainment or a ceremony at which the wearing of uniform is appropriate.

(3) A former member of the Regular Force or Reserve Force, who was released for a reason other than misconduct may wear uniform:

1. with the permission of an officer commanding a command or his designated authority and such other officers as may be designated by the Chief of the Defence Staff, when attending a military entertainment or ceremony at which the wearing of uniform is appropriate; and
2. on other occasions with the permission of the Chief of the Defence Staff.

 

[Furniture]

Except:

17.06 - WEARING OF UNIFORM - RESTRICTION​

(1) Except that an officer or non-commissioned member may wear a military uniform of obsolete pattern that is not likely to be confused with current dress, no member shall wear any part of military uniform at a fancy dress ball.

(2) No member of the Reserve Force shall wear uniform except when:

1. on service; or
2. attending a military entertainment or a ceremony at which the wearing of uniform is appropriate.

(3) A former member of the Regular Force or Reserve Force, who was released for a reason other than misconduct may wear uniform:

1. with the permission of an officer commanding a command or his designated authority and such other officers as may be designated by the Chief of the Defence Staff, when attending a military entertainment or ceremony at which the wearing of uniform is appropriate; and
2. on other occasions with the permission of the Chief of the Defence Staff.

"Fancy dress" means dressing up in costumes. Fancy Dress

It makes sense that you can't wear your uniform to a costume party, but formal occasions, like the formal night on a cruise is entirely appropriate use of mess kit. It is the military equivalent of of a tuxedo, and as such can be worn at formal civilian events. Much like No. 3 dress is the equivalent of a suit, and can be worn at events where a suit is appropriate.

Perhaps if CAF members wore their issued suit, or military pattern tuxedo to more events, the Canadian public wouldn't be quite as oblivious about us.

Edit: To be clear, I am also one of the people who avoids uniform on many occasions where it is entirely appropriate to wear it, and recognize that I am also part of the invisibility problem we have.

 

[Remius]

"Fancy dress" means dressing up in costumes. Fancy Dress

Sure. I’ll stand corrected on that.

It makes sense that you can't wear your uniform to a costume party, but formal occasions, like the formal night on a cruise is entirely appropriate use of mess kit. It is the military equivalent of of a tuxedo, and as such can be worn at formal civilian events. Much like No. 3 dress is the equivalent of a suit, and can be worn at events where a suit is appropriate.

Not exactly. There is also a restriction to wear your uniform outside Canada and caveats that go with that. So cruise ships may actually not be authorized depending on where you are cruising and if permission is granted.

Perhaps if CAF members wore their issued suit, or military pattern tuxedo to more events, the Canadian public wouldn't be quite as oblivious about us.

Not argument against that. I doubt though that any increase in mess dress wearing will change any of that.

 

[Furniture]

Not exactly. There is also a restriction to wear your uniform outside Canada and caveats that go with that. So cruise ships may actually not be authorized depending on where you are cruising and if permission is granted.

Fair point about international waters, but I'd hope an MWO would know to request permission.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Fair point about international waters, but I'd hope an MWO would know to request permission.

Or a Captain

 

[Halifax Tar]

@Furniture

Fair point about international waters, but I'd hope an MWO would know to request permission.

Soooo about all those rigger runs and Fleet Weeks lol

 

[Furniture]

Soooo about all those rigger runs and Fleet Weeks lol

I may or may not have been somewhat inebriated at RIMPAC recently as well... One of the perks of being in the senior service I suppose.

 

[dimsum]

I may or may not have been somewhat inebriated at RIMPAC recently as well... One of the perks of being in the senior service I suppose.

points at LRP and MH fleets

You don’t need to be in the Navy to get sloshed in RIMPAC

 

[Furniture]

points at LRP and MH fleets

You don’t need to be in the Navy to get sloshed in RIMPAC

You do if you're on an AOPV...

Fair point though... then again, the Admiral and Cmdre both showing up in uniform is likely permission enough to get away with wearing it.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You've ever partied until you've done Fleet Week in New Orleans.

NYC is also a Fleet Week everyone needs to experience!

 

[Furniture]

You've ever partied until you've done Fleet Week in New Orleans.

NYC is also a Fleet Week everyone needs to experience!

San Diego fleet week is also an experience, particularly if you've seen Top Gun.