Danny Williams lowers the Canadian Flag

[Bograt]

Just to add a bit of light on some of what the Feds were offering.

100% of oil revenue. Oil costed at 25.00 US a barrell. Anything over 25 bucks goes to the Feds.
The arrangement would be reconsidered after 8 years or when the per capital revenue equals Ontario (some figure of 2700) We are at somewhere 2400.00. New monies could not go to spending on health care or anything else, only on servicing the debt.

Is that 100% Mr. Martin promised?

Imagine getting a Christmas present you were promised by your uncle Franks. You open the present on Christmas day and are overjoyed. In January you get the invoice for said present. Merry Christmas.

 

[a_majoor]

I wonder if the promise of "easy" resource revenues isn't making people giddy. Unfortunately, experience in the rest of the world might suggest that this is a curse rather than a blessing, look at the oil rich nations of the middle east, for example. My fear is if any pol gets his hands on the money, it will be blown on the equivalent of the Great Pyramids, and when the oil runs out, there will be nothing left for that generation and beyond.

If the Premier of Nfld would really like to power his province into the 21rst century, he needs to get past the fixtation on resources and look at places like Singapore, Ireland, Japan from 1950-1980 or South Korea and realize these countries became economic powerhouses without the benefit of oil or other mineral resources through economic policies which rewarded savings, investment and entrepreneurial activity.

Here in the Rest of Canada (ROC), we tend to have economic policies which work in the opposite direction. In London, ON., for two quick examples, we have a civic work force which has 300 management positions (and a city population of 360,000), and spent $55 million to build a downtown arena as an "investment", with a current return to the city of -$4.5 million/year. The regulatory environment is also nightmarish, with city departments micromanaging down to the seat-covers of taxis. I am seriously thinking of running for mayor just for the sheer pleasure of bringing these facts out into the open and asking Londoners if they think the yearly 10% tax increases are being appropriately spent. (Back of the envelope calculations by me indicate that we might be able to ditch civic competition with commercial activities, streamline the civil service and come up with a 20% spending cut, which symbolically is about $100 million back in the productive economy, counterbalancing the known losses from ADSCAM).

Anyway, back on point, posturing for the media is a great way to gain short term points, I just hope the Premier has a long term plan, and I also hope the PM isn't driven by the panic stricken though of loosing Nfld's seats in the house to do something even more stupid than usual.

 

[Long in the tooth]

Quite surprised I didn't take more heat for my last post, so here goes for my hundredth.

Why should income from Newfoundland's resources be segregated?  Why is it special?  Please don't tell me that Alberta didn't count it as that was 40 years ago.  And as a net contributor they sure pay equalization now.  Is each province to be alloted an 'area' that doesn't count towards equalization guidelines?  Let's see.... for Nfld and NS - offshore oil, Quebec - Poutine , Ontario - Cars, Manitoba - Power Sales, BC - Retirees...

They all can make a case.  But this is still hypothetical.  Nfld won't make 'have' status for how long?  But Saskatchewan is on the cusp of being a have province and is proud of it, without special dispensation.

So Danny, how's it workin' out for you?

 

[Reccesoldier]

I personaly can't think of one other single action by the Premier of Newfoundland that would have achieved the same effect as this one has. Yes it was controversial but it definitely got straight to the point. It is causing people to stop and think just how long the Federal government has been playing these money games with the provinces.

IMO I believe that the federal government (specifically the liberals) want to have the provinces reliant on them for transfer payments. As a matter of fact provinces recieving transfer payments usualy vote... you got it... Liberal. When you stop to think about it this only makes sense.

The liberal party and reform liberalism in particular is built on the premise that there should be an equality of opportunity for all people in a nation. This means that they are guaranteed the same education, healthcare, standard of living ect. Sounds good so far eh. Enter the transfer payments, the poorer provinces get money from the Fed, who becomes the benifactor of the social safety net and thus the saviour of the people.

Well, it only works and/or is appreciated as long as a province is dependant on that welfare state for it's standard of living. As soon as a province is self sufficient the Liberal ideals begin to loose their attraction. This has already happened in Alberta and yes Ontario (prior to 1988 Ontario had voted Conservatiive on a federal level quite often and almost always provincially)

So now you have a situation where the ruling liberals see transfer payments not so much as a way of equalizing regional disparity as ensuring their continued political power in the "have not" provinces.

If you can put two and two together and are able to come up with four twice in a  row, you aught to be able to see the reason behind the Lib's continued use of transfer payments as a means to an end, not a social program as it should be.

Tie this in with the Liberal smear campaign against Conservative fiscal and governmental policy (Free markets = no social safety net and Small government = Less transfer payments) and you have a potent weapon to maintain Liberal dominance over the have-not's.

 

[Long in the tooth]

Reccesoldier - you go to the heart of the issue - provinces rely on the federal government way too much.  Only Ralph Klein has the power to make controversial decisions as he is not dependent on Ottawa.  Ontario could be as well, but is far too happy with Ottawa doing the dirty work of collecting revenues and Queen's Park looks good by spending it.

By comparison, US states receive about half their budgets from the federal government.  Perhaps we should scale back equalization to about 75% of what it is now.  Equalization moneys are not accountable as they are now just 'block transfers' not specified for health, education, welfare etc but up to the discretion of provincial governments.

If one jurisdiction (federal, provincial or municipal) wants to spend money, they should at least have the guts to raise the taxes and be accountable for it.

 

[a_majoor]

If one jurisdiction (federal, provincial or municipal) wants to spend money, they should at least have the guts to raise the taxes and be accountable for it.

This is the crux of the problem; accountability. The Liberal "promise" to share revenues with the cities is another example of creating a program which blurs accountability, although the practical effect is cities in non liberal ridings will be told by some bureaucrat in Ottawa how much they will pay for sewers in a city in a liberal riding.

Mr Martin is being called to account for a promise he made, I only wish Danny Williams had found a different way to express his displeasure than to take down our flag.

 

[Kirkhill]

I only wish Danny Williams had found a different way to express his displeasure than to take down our flag.

Isn't that the problem though? - the flag is supposed to be a shared symbol of a community.  The Newfoundlanders, or at least a very large chunk of them don't seem to feel part of the community.  At that point the Maple Leaf resonates with them the same way that the Union Jack resonates with the Quebecois. -  Symbol of a foreign presence and not part of them.

 

[mo-litia]

I am proud to be Canadian. However I have alot of respect for people like Brian Tobin, Frank McKenna and Mr. Williams. These three have stood up to the federal goverment, each in their own way, to get something for their provinces...
...   What the east needs is to be treated fairly. Give us the same fighting chance that resource blessed Ontario, B.C., Alberta and Quebec were given. Perhaps , with tha, we can use the gas and oil reserves to build a better economy and lessen the need for transfers.

NFLD deserves the same resourse revenue rights as Alberta.
Of course, separation and joining OPEC may still be a viable option for NFLD.  

(Not to advocate any violations of the QR&O's   ;D)

 

[ex_coelis]

Enjoying reading uninformed upper canadian rants about the maple leaf in Newfoundland, read similar comments in yesterdays National (yeah right) Post editorial.   A few thoughts on the issue:

-The day after talks (in Winnipeg?!) broke down over Newfoundland's share of the oil revenues, Todd B's suckerpunch was the headline in the Nat Post, the oil story didn't make the _entire_ paper.   Danny Williams pulls down the flag, next day headlines for both of the national rags.   So, the fact that Paul Martin was breaking a massive election promise to NFLD, not news-worthy.   Danny is a smart man and I applaud his actions.   Let's face it, pulling down the flags was the only way the story would get any press, why, because Newfoundland's concerns are not deemed worthy of Canadian attention, and it's been like this for 55 years.

For those who read those papers and are convinced from the empty headed editorials that Newfoundland does nothing but suck Canada's teat, please remember that transfer payments to NF were begun to make up for the fact that Newfoundland would no longer collect duties on imports once we joined Canada.   As with Canada today, these revenues made up a sizeable part of the national budget, and were to be no more after confederation.   Remember that we came into Canada as a proud nation, with 44 million in the bank, now 55 years later, we are a the butt of central canadian jokes and a have-not province.   Should Newfoundlanders just act like this doesn't matter?   Not this one.

I'm sure even the least educated among you would admit knowing that Newfoundland is blessed with abundant natural resources, and yet is a poor province.   So, extend this a knowledge a touch further and (maybe for the first time) ask why?   Does it make sense?   So many resounces, so little money, where does it all go?   Now imagine that you are a Newfoundlander, do you think you'd be happy about all this?  

Before you people in Ontario start yelling treason, remember that we've been Newfoundland much longer than Canadas been Canada.   Our parents were born Newfoundlanders, with passports that said so.   One dodgy election brought us into this country, and one proper election could bring us out.   Canada was Canada before Newfoundland, and Canada will be Canada without her (which cannot be said of Quebec).   The Canadian chapter of our history is a short one, and people are realizing that if we don't make the relationship with Canada equitable soon, the arse will truely be out of her.  


We have 500,000 people, and:
+Hibernia, White Rose, Terra Nova + more oil
+Voisey's Bay nickel
+Churchill Fall's hydroelectricity
+Airspace (NavCan collects cash on virtually all flights between Europe and the US/Canada, as the _all_ pass over Newfoundland (my Newfoundland includes Labrador).
+Forestry.
+Fresh water which flows to the sea.
+A formerly great fishery, largely traded away largely on Ottawas watch.   Still, it's a huge fishery today, just not Cod based.
+more

And we're poor?   Come on!   We joined Canada without getting a say in the terms, which were negotiated between Canada and Great Britain.   We got a raw deal, and the result has been painfully obvious.   We are asking for a more equitable arrangement that will release Newfoundland from perpetual poverty imposed by a 'benevolent' govt 3000kms away.   Right now we feel like Indians being given shiny baubles for their land, and look where it got the indians.   I don't want to see Newfoundland continue it's slide towards being a reservation.

Like it or not folks, Williams actions are popular in Newfoundland, and not just amongst the rabble-rousers.   This stuff is discussed everyday at dinner tables and bar stools every day, and has been as long as I can remember.   Just because Upper Canadians think we're all cool with things doesn'y make it true.   (We sing we dance we cry we act, un-uh)  

The federal governement is in a minority position, suddenly the handful of Newfoundland MPs are in a position to be listened to as never before, and the people of Newfoundland know this.   If the 5 of them vote against the government in a confidence vote, then the govt falls and it's an early election.   People in Newfoundland are asking those politicians if they are representing Newfoundland in Ottawa, or Ottawa in Newfoundland.   For far too long, it has been the latter.   Now it is time for a change.   Paul Martin came to Newfoundland and made a promise that in the end, gained him the votes that put him in power, is it too much to hold him accountable for this?

My loyalties have always been to Newfoundland first and Canada second, and in my 12 years in the CF I never made any attempt to hide this.   As long as Newfoundland is part of Canada, I will do Canada's bidding, once Newfoundland leaves (and if things remain as they are, I hope she does),   I will look out for her best interests.   The longer I live in country goverened by Ontario/Quebec-centric knee-jerk Liberals, the more I support asking the important questions.   What's so great about a country that prefers this governments vision (or lack there-of).

We are looking to our Irish cousins, as well as Iceland and Norway and seeing that small countries in our sphere can survive and prosper and asking ourselves, is this as good as it gets (colonized by the colonized and treated as such).   How _should_ we answer?

Be lucky its the flag coming down and not a snap referendum.

Best regards.

 

[Infanteer]

ex_coelis
Guest

Online

Posts: 1

Can I have your attention please - would the real Slim Shady please stand up....

 

[Navalsnpr]

I think the Irish Descendants and other Folk groups from Nfld will have fun writing songs about this one!

 

[ex_coelis]

Can I have your attention please - would the real Slim Shady please stand up....

What's your point?

 

[Michael OLeary]

What's your point?

excoelis - http://army.ca/forums/members/1242

ex_coelis - http://army.ca/forums/members/7090

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Ex_coelis,

I didn't really want to phrase it like this but with your "rant on" I guess I won't feel guilty about asking with all this,

We have 500,000 people, and:
+Hibernia, White Rose, Terra Nova + more oil
+Voisey's Bay nickel
+Churchill Fall's hydroelectricity
+Airspace (NavCan collects cash on virtually all flights between Europe and the US/Canada, as the _all_ pass over Newfoundland (my Newfoundland includes Labrador).
+Forestry.
+Fresh water which flows to the sea.
+A formerly great fishery, largely traded away largely on Ottawas watch.  Still, it's a huge fishery today, just not Cod based.
+more

,,why can't "your" province be run in the black?
One would think with all this "stuff" you have, life should be easy street.......or is it much easier just to blame others for "your" mis-management?

 

[ex_coelis]

Ex_coelis,

I didn't really want to phrase it like this but with your "rant on" I guess I won't feel guilty about asking with all this,

[We have 500,000 people, and:


,,why can't "your" province be run in the black?
One would think with all this "stuff" you have, life should be easy street.......or is it much easier just to blame others for "your" mis-management?

Bruce,

I'm sorry for the rant, I had just finished reading too much about this and sorta let loose.   I should say that my experiences in the CF left me at many times filled with Canadian pride, and I really do hope we can work out our place in Canada, I just hope it is a more equitable one.   I guess I was particularly upset with comments I read in the national press about Williams 'desicration' of the flag, something which no Newfoundlander should or would support, but which wasn't done (a commisionairre removing and folding the flag isn't desicration, it's just taking it down).   I support the Premier because his actions, while over the top perhaps, got the issue raised in many places.   Martin made a promise, and he should stick to it.   I think Canadians should see that Newfoundlanders see our oil as our chance to break out of the funk that we've been in for years, and are not ready to see Martin blubber his way out of fulfilling his promises.   The fact that the talks took place in Winnipeg, and without the prior knowledge of the Minister of Natural Resources told most of us that the talks were a sham, and I agree with Williams for being a man and walking out of them with his pride intact.  

About the points specifically....

+Hibernia, White Rose, Terra Nova + more oil            [Feds vs. transfer payments, the crux of the current issue]
+Voisey's Bay nickel            [Owned by INCO, who want to process the Nickel in Subdury, removing potential NF jobs from the mix]
+Churchill Fall's hydroelectricity    [oh boy,   : bad deal signed by Smallwood (the king of the bad deals) , should have received federal support for a review, tried it a few years ago (Tobin) blocked by Quebec, go figure]
+Airspace (NavCan collects cash on virtually all flights between Europe and the US/Canada, as the _all_ pass over Newfoundland (my Newfoundland includes Labrador).
   [Airspace revenue is federal $, not provincial]
+Forestry.   [no idea really, way outside of my knowledge]
+Fresh water which flows to the sea.    [again, the feds said we can't sell it, due to NAFTA]
+A formerly great fishery, largely traded away largely on Ottawas watch.      [Foreign fishing rights and $ goes to the Feds, DFO's decisions often fly in the face of the NF inshore fishery].  
+more[/u]

I listed those issues to say that Nflders are wondering how it is we have these resources, yet have so little to show for it.   My point is that for most of this, the money doesn't flow to the province, it goes to Ottawa, who them sends us transfer payments, we then get labelled in the national press as a bunch of layabouts who contribute little, but take a lot.   When the real math is done, it just ain't so.   Were the province to be able to properly benefit from some of this, we might not have the basket-case reputation we seem to have.  

I don't mean to insult anyone, I just wanted to educate people as to where the discontent flows from.    Nobody likes being a basket-case.



Best regards.  

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
The smart People knew damnwell what was going to happen. example: It was asked to our guys in all UK Forces by memorandum in 1942 if they prefered to be with canada or independant and the answer was a unanimous no to confedreation

You got any facts to back this up with smart guy?......or just more "waaaahhhh"?

 

[ex_coelis]

Hi Deminer,

With all respect, I really doubt your grandfather gave Joey "the barrelman" nickname, The Barrelman was the name of Joeys radio show in the 30's, back when he was a pig-farmer from Gambo. 

I'm not apologizing for anything I said, just for where I'm saying it.  Not sure this is the right place for all this.

Bruce,  I assume the cry-baby comment wasn't directed at my postings?  If so, I'm wasting my time, your earlier post sounded like honest curiosity.  If that was directed at Newfoundland's seeking a better deal, then remind me to wish you a good riddance on our way out.

I'll drop this here.  If anyone is interested in some informed comments I invite you to check the following links...

The guy posting under Sir Robert Bond seems pretty well informed  (and if you don't know who Sir Robert Bond was, you definitely don't know enough about the place for me to care .  The first link is mainly about the 'flag-flap' the second is specifically about the oil revenues.

http://www.canadawebpages.com/pc-forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=627&whichpage=1
http://www.canadawebpages.com/pc-forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=489


And Newfoundlands growing political party...  Newfoundland and Labrador First Party

http://www.nlfirst.ca/index.html

Don't forget the Newfoundland's weekly broadsheet, The Independent, which did a 6 parter into the real math for Nfld's 55 year dance with Canada, the numbers might surprise you.

http://www.theindependent.ca/home.asp


There you go Bruce, some reading to satisfy your curiousity.

I'm not looking to rattle cages here.  Just trying to open some eyes.  That friendly place in the East may be saying 'bye-bye' quicker than some think.  Acting like it's not happening won't change the outcome.  If your Canada includes Newfoundland, let your MP know that Canada could use another 'have' province, and tell Martin to live to the deal he struck, and he did strike a deal, which is why Williams is wondering what the 'negociations' are all about.  If Martin won't keep his word, would he do the honourable thing and, step down or must he be brought down in a confidence vote.  No one likes a liars, or thieves.

Best regards.

 

[227Tech]

You got any facts to back this up with smart guy?......or just more "waaaahhhh"?

That's the best argument that you could come up with?  I'm literally shocked that someone who is suppost to be an admin can be so Juenville.  Excellent post Ex_Coelis, you pretty well have summed up what the bulk of the province feels.  And for "Mr. Staff" person, I'm sorry but your ignorance is no reason for us to Justifiy what we already know, if you don't agree witih the facts presented to you than I'm sure you have the intelligence to go find the answers yourself and come back when you have compiled a mature argument.

Thanks,

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Actually that comment had nothing to do with the situation about who owns the oil, now if you would bother to read the whole thread I believe you will see that I think Nfld and NS should get to keep all of the revenue, the only issue I brought up is how long then before those provinces then become "have" provinces and then require less transfer payments. Someone mentioned at least 10 more years which seemed long to me, if this money was managed correctly.

Now as to way I am getting pissed off at the whining is, when bringing in an arguement don't present it as fact when it is ENTIRELY hearsay, which would be OK if it was presented as hearsay[ I remember my Dad telling me to pull his finger and I'm still waiting for the wish] but, in this case it was presented as fact and then reneged when called on it.
And to that, yes, that would be my best arguement.

Ex,
I have not checked out those threads yet, I'm waiting for a call.[darn dial-up]...but I will read them later tonight.

 

[ex_coelis]

And let's not forget what politics he was preaching from that dockyard, Communism, yech!  Of course that all changed after his trip to London and the closed door meetings with the Privvy Council.  Sold off to pay for war debts, and Joey was crowned King.  It was all over before they bothered to call for a vote.  51/49 with the ballots burned the next day.  No recount, no questions, you're Canadian now, enjoy the ride.  Can you imagine Quebec voting 51% to leave today and the vote being accepted without a debate,  a recount, and the ballots burned?  The whole thing stank then, and 55 years hasn't made it any less ripe. 

Really though, I'm less concerned with the politics of that time, and more concerned with the 'here and now'.  I've been the devil's advocate arguing on Canada's side for years, and if I've now come to point where I'd rationally consider independence, I can only wonder how many others have already reached this point, are passed it,  and are ready to act?

Best regards.