- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
Also several passages and straits in and around Indonesian archipelago:
Mark
Ottawa
Mark
Ottawa
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
In any event our claim to NW Passage under international law is pretty weak, which is why no gov't has dared take it to international arbitration. See this article by Prof. James Kraska ( https://usnwc.edu/Faculty-and-Departments/Directory/James-Kraska ) at p. 41 PDF:
https://cdainstitute.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/vimy_paper2.pdf
Lots more on Prof. Kraska, quite the biography--note service in USN:
https://cnsl.virginia.edu/james-kraska
Mark
Ottawa
https://cdainstitute.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/vimy_paper2.pdf
Lots more on Prof. Kraska, quite the biography--note service in USN:
https://cnsl.virginia.edu/james-kraska
Mark
Ottawa
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
Well-informed friend comments: "It will be interesting to see the USA response when the Russians and Chinese start doing FON operations in the Northwest Passage…"
Mark
Ottawa
Mark
Ottawa
- Reaction score
- 1,635
- Points
- 1,060
MarkOttawa said:Also several passages and straits in and around Indonesian archipelago:
Mark
Ottawa
Seems a poor example to me. The difference in access and use have to be so many orders of magnitude as to approach a difference in kind. Lots of Indonesians walking across the water over there, is there?
- Reaction score
- 8,234
- Points
- 1,160
suffolkowner said:
No. Lots of Chinese building islands out of submerged rocks over there. Then planting docks and airfields on them. Then arming them.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/30/world/asia/what-china-has-been-building-in-the-south-china-sea.html
And as to Russians and Chinese operating in the Northwest Passage
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/chinese-ship-making-first-voyage-through-canadas-northwest-passage/article36142513/
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/chinese-military-expanding-reach-into-arctic-region-pentagon-fears-it-will-deploy-nuclear-armed-submarines
If we don't mow our lawn, someone else will do it for us. They don't want to be pestered with our dandelions.
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
From a friend very knowledgeable about the US and its gov't:
Endless failure to pay our fair share coming home to roost. Time to spend for "defence against help"? As we once were willing to do. Plus then having the sensible decency to recognize that there were actually existing enemies (now "adversaries") out there and it was Canada's duty as a serious country to, er, do its bit.
No more. Upchuck.
Mark
Ottawa
Endless failure to pay our fair share coming home to roost. Time to spend for "defence against help"? As we once were willing to do. Plus then having the sensible decency to recognize that there were actually existing enemies (now "adversaries") out there and it was Canada's duty as a serious country to, er, do its bit.
No more. Upchuck.
Mark
Ottawa
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
Slight reprieve from USCG:
Mark
Ottawa
Mark
Ottawa
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 11,820
- Points
- 1,160
I was at a LNG Trade show yesterday, NWT government was there touting the Tuk to Aisa route, also showing off it`s northern infrastructure, again Ontario fails in comparison.
Spencer100
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,201
- Points
- 1,040
This may get Canadians to think and spend more on the Arctic. Fear of the Russian or Chinese will not but those evil Americans...… :cold: 
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/bolton-coast-guard-to-help-reassert-us-leadership-in-arctic/ar-AABKu3B?ocid=spartanntp
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/bolton-coast-guard-to-help-reassert-us-leadership-in-arctic/ar-AABKu3B?ocid=spartanntp
- Reaction score
- 27,291
- Points
- 1,090
Well, via Halifax and the Panama Canal, of course.Good2Golf said:
Spencer100
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,201
- Points
- 1,040
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2019/06/trumps-new-arctic-policy-has-familiar-ring/157622/?oref=d-river
Author suggests a joint NW passage voyage. Do we even have a ship that could do it? St Laurent is in dry dock. Could the AOPS do it in the future?
Author suggests a joint NW passage voyage. Do we even have a ship that could do it? St Laurent is in dry dock. Could the AOPS do it in the future?
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 31,954
- Points
- 1,160
Chief Engineer said:
I'm prepared to lead an expedition to right the wrongs inflicted upon Canadian sovereignty by this example of brazen, Dutch border bouncing
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/dutch-kayaker-reaches-paulatuk-on-journey-through-northwest-passage-1.3195643
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 11,820
- Points
- 1,160
Raise a regiment of illregulars and call it the 5th Light Walts Rifles.
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
USN more concerned about Northern Sea Route than NorthwestPassage--excerpts, note CCG commandant:
How geopolitics make the U.S. Navy’s plans for major Arctic operations so complicated
The U.S. Navy will conduct some kind of Arctic operations this summer — but it hasn't said exactly what. Every option comes with potential issues.
In response to new Russian rules on the Northern Sea Route, the U.S. Navy plans to undertake significant operations in the Arctic this summer, perhaps even a freedom of navigation, or FONOPS, exercise — though the exact nature of those operations remains unclear.
But whatever form those operations take, they will be constrained by a complicated — and sometimes contradictory — set of geopolitical factors at work in the Arctic.
The Navy “has already talked about doing freedom of navigation operations or innocent passage, depending on what they’re going to call it, up through the Arctic this summer,” said U.S. Sen. Dan Sullivan, a Republican from Alaska, in remarks last week at a symposium on the Arctic in Washington. Sullivan added that the exercise would likely involve “a couple of destroyers.” (Disclosure: The writer moderated a separate event at this symposium.)
[US Navy plans to send surface vessels through the Arctic]
Speaking later that afternoon, Rear Adm. Thomas Marotta, the reserve assistant deputy chief of naval operations, plans and strategy, confirmed Sullivan’s remarks and earlier reports.
“Senator Sullivan told you this morning exactly what the Navy’s going to be doing in the Arctic,” Marotta said, joking that his job at the conference had been done for him.
In response to an ArcticToday inquiry to the Navy about plans to conduct FONOPS in the Arctic, a spokesperson sent a copy of its latest Arctic strategy as its only response.
Marotta also confirmed the impetus for such an exercise: the news, in March, that Russia would be restricting traffic on the Northern Sea Route — with requirements to notify them 45 days in advance, detail the characteristics of the ship or ships, and bring Russian pilots aboard foreign ships. In May, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said that Russian requirements on the Northern Sea Route were illegal — and also labeled parallel Canadian claims to sovereignty over the Northwest Passage as “illegitimate. [emphasis added]”..
Marotta also made clear in his remarks that the Navy’s dispute is with Russia, not Canada — despite a decades-long disagreement over the Northwest Passage, which Canada claims as internal waters and the U.S. sees as an international seaway.
“But there’s never been a requirement or a threat from the Canadian government to arrest your captain or sink your ship,” Marotta said. “So that’s why the conflict is in the Arctic.”
The secretary of the Navy, Richard Spencer, first commented in December that the U.S. Navy should be conducting freedom of navigation operations in the Arctic.
“We need to be doing FONOPS in the northwest — in the northern passage,” Spencer said at an event with the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C. It was unclear from that speech whether Spencer was referring to the Northwest Passage or the Northern Sea Route.
[The US Navy’s revived 2nd Fleet, with a focus on the North Atlantic and nearby Arctic, is now operational]
At an April hearing before the Senate Committee on Armed Services, Sen. Sullivan asked Sec. Spencer about freedom of navigation operations in the Arctic.
“The Arctic is a focus of ours, and we’ve never taken our eyes off of it,” Spencer replied. He said that he and Adm. John Richardson, chief of naval operations, had discussed “the possibility of bringing some ships up, maybe up to Valdez,” in the summer. In that hearing, Spencer emphasized the importance of cold-weather training and preparedness — in part to prepare for freedom of navigation and other “diligent maneuvers” in the circumpolar north...
Another option could be a joint exercise with Canada.
“That would be far less controversial,” Pincus said.
However, the United States’ only medium icebreaker, the USCGC Healy, is booked through the summer, so it’s unlikely that it could escort Navy vessels through ice-infested waters. The transit would have to take place in clear waters, or it would have to be with an ally like Canada.
Jeff Hutchinson, commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard, told ArcticToday in May that he wasn’t aware of any joint operations planned. “But that doesn’t mean we might not plan one in the future,” he said. He pointed to a recent precedent, the 2017 exercise where a Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker assisted the USCGC Maple through the Northwest Passage.
Hutchinson also mentioned the possibility of an exercise with Denmark, the United States and Canada [emphasis added].
“The Danes are really interested in strengthening the North American relationship — of course, Greenland is geographically part of North America,” he said. “So, I could see that in the not-too-distant future.”
However, he cautioned against associating exercises such as these with official freedom of navigation operations.
Responding to Sec. Spencer’s comments, Hutchinson said, “Somebody should remind the secretary that the Canadians know better than anybody: When people go through there, it’s almost always with our help.”
The majority of ships that go through the Northwest Passage rely directly on Canadian Coast Guard vessels to get them through, he added...
The crew of U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Maple follows the crew of Canadian Coast Guard Icebreaker Terry Fox through the icy waters of Franklin Strait, in Nunavut Canada, August 11, 2017. The Canadian Coast Guard assisted Maple’s crew by breaking and helping navigate through ice during several days of Maple’s 2017 Northwest Passage transit. (Petty Officer 2nd Class Nate Littlejohn / U.S. Coast Guard)
Mark
Ottawa
How geopolitics make the U.S. Navy’s plans for major Arctic operations so complicated
The U.S. Navy will conduct some kind of Arctic operations this summer — but it hasn't said exactly what. Every option comes with potential issues.
In response to new Russian rules on the Northern Sea Route, the U.S. Navy plans to undertake significant operations in the Arctic this summer, perhaps even a freedom of navigation, or FONOPS, exercise — though the exact nature of those operations remains unclear.
But whatever form those operations take, they will be constrained by a complicated — and sometimes contradictory — set of geopolitical factors at work in the Arctic.
The Navy “has already talked about doing freedom of navigation operations or innocent passage, depending on what they’re going to call it, up through the Arctic this summer,” said U.S. Sen. Dan Sullivan, a Republican from Alaska, in remarks last week at a symposium on the Arctic in Washington. Sullivan added that the exercise would likely involve “a couple of destroyers.” (Disclosure: The writer moderated a separate event at this symposium.)
[US Navy plans to send surface vessels through the Arctic]
Speaking later that afternoon, Rear Adm. Thomas Marotta, the reserve assistant deputy chief of naval operations, plans and strategy, confirmed Sullivan’s remarks and earlier reports.
“Senator Sullivan told you this morning exactly what the Navy’s going to be doing in the Arctic,” Marotta said, joking that his job at the conference had been done for him.
In response to an ArcticToday inquiry to the Navy about plans to conduct FONOPS in the Arctic, a spokesperson sent a copy of its latest Arctic strategy as its only response.
Marotta also confirmed the impetus for such an exercise: the news, in March, that Russia would be restricting traffic on the Northern Sea Route — with requirements to notify them 45 days in advance, detail the characteristics of the ship or ships, and bring Russian pilots aboard foreign ships. In May, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said that Russian requirements on the Northern Sea Route were illegal — and also labeled parallel Canadian claims to sovereignty over the Northwest Passage as “illegitimate. [emphasis added]”..
Marotta also made clear in his remarks that the Navy’s dispute is with Russia, not Canada — despite a decades-long disagreement over the Northwest Passage, which Canada claims as internal waters and the U.S. sees as an international seaway.
“But there’s never been a requirement or a threat from the Canadian government to arrest your captain or sink your ship,” Marotta said. “So that’s why the conflict is in the Arctic.”
The secretary of the Navy, Richard Spencer, first commented in December that the U.S. Navy should be conducting freedom of navigation operations in the Arctic.
“We need to be doing FONOPS in the northwest — in the northern passage,” Spencer said at an event with the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C. It was unclear from that speech whether Spencer was referring to the Northwest Passage or the Northern Sea Route.
[The US Navy’s revived 2nd Fleet, with a focus on the North Atlantic and nearby Arctic, is now operational]
At an April hearing before the Senate Committee on Armed Services, Sen. Sullivan asked Sec. Spencer about freedom of navigation operations in the Arctic.
“The Arctic is a focus of ours, and we’ve never taken our eyes off of it,” Spencer replied. He said that he and Adm. John Richardson, chief of naval operations, had discussed “the possibility of bringing some ships up, maybe up to Valdez,” in the summer. In that hearing, Spencer emphasized the importance of cold-weather training and preparedness — in part to prepare for freedom of navigation and other “diligent maneuvers” in the circumpolar north...
Another option could be a joint exercise with Canada.
“That would be far less controversial,” Pincus said.
However, the United States’ only medium icebreaker, the USCGC Healy, is booked through the summer, so it’s unlikely that it could escort Navy vessels through ice-infested waters. The transit would have to take place in clear waters, or it would have to be with an ally like Canada.
Jeff Hutchinson, commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard, told ArcticToday in May that he wasn’t aware of any joint operations planned. “But that doesn’t mean we might not plan one in the future,” he said. He pointed to a recent precedent, the 2017 exercise where a Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker assisted the USCGC Maple through the Northwest Passage.
Hutchinson also mentioned the possibility of an exercise with Denmark, the United States and Canada [emphasis added].
“The Danes are really interested in strengthening the North American relationship — of course, Greenland is geographically part of North America,” he said. “So, I could see that in the not-too-distant future.”
However, he cautioned against associating exercises such as these with official freedom of navigation operations.
Responding to Sec. Spencer’s comments, Hutchinson said, “Somebody should remind the secretary that the Canadians know better than anybody: When people go through there, it’s almost always with our help.”
The majority of ships that go through the Northwest Passage rely directly on Canadian Coast Guard vessels to get them through, he added...
The crew of U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Maple follows the crew of Canadian Coast Guard Icebreaker Terry Fox through the icy waters of Franklin Strait, in Nunavut Canada, August 11, 2017. The Canadian Coast Guard assisted Maple’s crew by breaking and helping navigate through ice during several days of Maple’s 2017 Northwest Passage transit. (Petty Officer 2nd Class Nate Littlejohn / U.S. Coast Guard)
Mark
Ottawa
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 11,820
- Points
- 1,160
The USCG icebreaking fleet makes us look pretty good in comparison.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 11,820
- Points
- 1,160
When they are floating i will believe it.
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
- 710
Earlier on planned new USCG icebreakers (rebadged as "Polar Security Cutters" to sound defence-oriented in order to make it easier to get money from Congress)--note major role for US breakers has been in the Antarctic, not the Arctic:
And this from July 9:
Mark
Ottawa
And this from July 9:
Report to Congress on Coast Guard Polar Security Cutter
...
https://news.usni.org/2019/07/09/report-to-congress-on-coast-guard-polar-security-cutter-2
Mark
Ottawa
Similar threads
