Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty

[Jungle]

Interesting bit of news:

July 29, 2005 - The Government of Canada officially declared the island as Canadian soil, and stated that it will defend the island as if it were any other part of Canada. Canadian officials said that they will send troops to the island.

 

[Pfc_Norup]

Lets see....

Early Period
982: London is plundered by the Vikings.  
1043: King Magnus defeats the Wends at the Battle of Lyrskov Hede.
23rd of October 1157: King Valdemar defeats Svend at Grathe Hede in the Danish civil war.
21st of May 1184: A Danish fleet of 125 ships under Absalon defeat a Vendic fleet of 500 ships off Rygen. 447 Vendic ships are captured. Only a few Danish ships are lost.
15th of June 1219: At the Battle of Lyndanis in Estonia, the Danish flag falls from the sky. Or so the myth tells.
1362: King Valdemar defeats a Hanseatic fleet that are besieging Helsingborg and force Lubeck to make peace.
1450-1520 The Union Wars
28th of September 1497: King Hans and his army of German mercenaries, defeat a Swedish army at the Battle of Rotebro.
6th of April 1520: A Danish army defeats a Swedish peasant army at Uppsala and occupies Stockholm.
8th of November 1520: King Christian II orders the Swedish noblemen executed. The day becomes known as the Blood bath of Stockholm.
1534-1536 War with Lubeck and the Danish Civil War
9th of June 1535: A Danish-Swedish fleet fight a sea battle with the German state of Lubeck. The battle ends without a winner. But in the coming days, the Lubeck fleet is destroyed.
11th of June 1536: In the Danish Civil War, a peasant army is massacred by Christian the IIIÂ's soldiers, at the Battle at Oxnebjerg.   :warstory:
1563-1570 The Seven Year War
25th of January 1571: A peace treaty ends the Seven Year War between Sweden and Denmark.
30th of May 1564: A Danish fleet under command of Herluf Trolle, defeat a Swedish fleet between Oland and Gotland.
1611-1613 The Kalmar War
1611: War between Denmark and Sweden breaks out, when Sweden wants to break Denmarks monopoly of the trade to Russia.
18th of January 1613: Denmark and Sweden sign a peace treaty.
1618-1648 The Thirty Years War
1618: Denmark intervene in the war between Catholics and Protestants.
1626: The Danish Army under command of Christian IV is defeated by a Catholic Army at Lutter am Barenberg.
1643-1645 Thorsteinson War
1st of July 1644: The Danish Navy, meets the Swedish Navy by Kolberg Heide. It ends in a Danish strategic victory when the Swedes withdraw.
16th of May 1644: A Danish fleet defeats a Dutch fleet, which has been sent as reinforcement for Sweden by Lister Dyb.
13th of August 1645: Denmark and Sweden make peace in Bromsebro after the Torstensson War.
1657-1658 1st Swedish War
1st of June 1657: Denmark declares war on Sweden in the 1st Swedish War.
18th of February 1657: Denmark and Sweden make peace in the 1st Swedish War.
1658-1660 2nd Swedish War
10th of February 1659: In the 2nd Swedish War, Swedish troops storm Copenhagen, but are repelled. The Danish losses are 12 soldiers, while several thousand Swedish soldiers lose their lives. :threat:
1675-1679 The Scanian War
29th of June 1675: Danish troops lands at Raa in Sweden. This is the start of the Skaanske War.
3rd of December 1675: In the Skaanske War, the Danish and Swedish army meet at Lund.
1st of July 1677: A Danish fleet under command of Niels Juul, defeats a Swedish fleet in the Bay of Koege.
1700-1720 The Great Nordic War
4th of August 1700: The Great Nordic War breaks out, when Swedish troops land at Sjaeland.
15th of March 1709: In the Great Nordic War, Danish troops pull out of Sweden.
28th of October 1709: Denmark declares war on Sweden in the Great Nordic War after Karl XII is defeated at Poltava by the Russians.
24th of April 1715: In the Great Nordic War, a Swedish fleet is defeated by Femern.
3rd of July 1720: Denmark and Sweden makes peace in the Great Nordic War. Denmark receives 600.000 Rigsdaler as retribution.
1788 War with Sweden
29th of September 1788: The Danish Army defeat the Swedish Army by Kvistrumbro. This is the only battle of the war.
1800-1813 The Napoleonic Wars
25th of July 1800: A gunbattle breaks out when four British warships attemts to search a Danish convoy.
2nd of April 1801: A Danish-English sea battle takes place outside Copenhagen. It becomes known as Slaget på Reden. Or the Battle of Copenhagen in English.
4th of November 1807: England declares war on Denmark.
10th of December 1809: Denmark and Sweden sign a peace treaty in Jonkoping.
14th of January 1814: A peace treaty is signed with England and Sweden in Kiel.
1848-1850 The Three Year War
24th of March 1848: Schleswig-Holstein insurgents capture the fortress of Rendsburg and thereby trigger the Three Year War.
9th of April 1848: The town of Bov falls to the Danish Army: This is the first battle between Danish forces and the insurgent army.
23rd of April 1848: Danish and Prussian forces meet at Busdorf (Schleswig) and by nightfall the Danes retreat. The same day Mysunde is occupied by Schleswig-Holstein troops.
24th of April 1848: The German forces are stopped at Oeversee.
28th of May 1848: 14.000 Danish soldiers cross the Als Sound, and attack the German forces by Dybbol. The Germans are forced back to Graasten and Adsboel.   ;D
3rd of April 1849: After a seven month cease-fire, war breaks out again between Denmark and Germany.
5th of July 1849: The Danish garrison and General RyeÂ's corps succeeds in breaking out from Fredericia which is besieged by the Schleswig-Holstein army.
2nd of July 1850: After Russian pressure, Prussia and most of the German states end hostilities with Denmark. The Schleswig-Holstein states continue the war by themselves.
25th of July 1850: After a day of heavy fighting, the Danish Army defeats the Schleswig-Holstein Army at the Battle of Idstedt.
31st of December 1850: The last battle of the Three Year War takes place outside Mysunde.
1864 War of 1864
1st of February 1864: War breaks out between Denmark and Germany-Austria
5th of February 1864: The Danish army retreats from the Dannevirke positions, and pull northwards.
9h of May 1864: A Danish naval squadron defeats a combined Austrian-Prussian squadron at the Battle off Helgoland. The same day a truce takes place between Denmark and Prussia-Austria.
1940-1945 The Occupation   :'(
9th of April 1940: Germany invades Denmark. After a few hours of fighting Denmark surrenders.
29th of August 1943: The German occupation forces take full control of Denmark. Fighting breaks out several places, and the Danish Navy is scuttled by it's crew.
2nd of October 1943: The Germans attempt to arrest the Danish Jews, but most of them escape to Sweden.
19th of September 1944: The Danish police force is interned by the Germans.
5th of May 1945: The German forces in Denmark surrender.

1945- Modern time
Cypress
Gaza
Yugoslavia
May 1994: A Danish tank force from the peacekeeping force in Bosnia defeats a Serbian force near Tuzla. As many as 100 serbians might have been wounded or killed without any looses for the Danes.
May 1999: Danish F-16 fighters participate in attacks against Serbia.

And Kosovo and Afganistan and Iraq......

We might be small... But we pack a punch!!!!!

Are you guys gonna do the same as in 1940: ignore trouble when it gets serious ??    While you guys were accepting German occupation, we sent 4 Divisions to liberate Europe...

That's low... we didn't accept it ( 80mil vs 3.5mil) And we didn't stop fighting until the King told us to!!! What would you do if the US invaded You? ( 250mil vs 33mil )?

Finally, I'll speak French wherever I darn want to...!!!

Good for You... You must be so proud!!!!   ;D


At various times the King of Denmark has ruled parts of England and Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland and parts of the Virgin Islands, Tranquebar in India, parts of the Baltic coast and what is now northern Germany. Scania, Blekinge and Halland were part of Denmark

And if You don't keep away from Hans Ø...Canada will be part of Denmark to!!!!!   :threat:

 

[Jungle]

And if You dodn't keep away from Hans Ø...Canada will be part of Denmark to!!!!!   :threat:

LOL !!! Good luck... Have a good one !!!  ;D

 

[McG]

I know you guys feel it's yours but look at the fact and accept that in this case YOU have invaded a Danish Island and You're NOT welcome! ( Remember the Falklands?)

And if You don't keep away from Hans ...Canada will be part of Denmark to!!!!!   :threat:

???  Here I was thinking that it was the governments (not the ptes & cpls) that declared wars and decided what was in a country's interests to fight for.

This thread has gotten silly when we start fantasising about the details of a Canadian/Danish war.

Comparing length of military histories is also about as mature as a penis length contest.

At the very least, lets keep the debate on Hans Island tied to the island's history & geography.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Everyone put away the testosterone. It's a useless chunk of rock. It won't be solved by us, or anytime soon.

 

[jackson]

This post has been deleted because it ignored the direction of the mods and attempted to instigate a further juvenile flame war.
Jackson, consider this your only informal warning.  Next step is a verbal.

 

[Pfc_Norup]

This message has been deleted because it ignored the direction of the mods and continued a superfluous examination of military history lengths in a responce to Jackson's instigation.

pfc, consider this your last informal warning

 

[TCBF]

I say it belongs to the Danes.  Besides, they wil do a better job of looking after it than we will.  if we have to send a unit, I recommend press-gangs troll the halls of NDHQ and grab anyone who looks like they could use a bit of fresh air and exercise - civil or military - and form them into the 1st Cdn Arctic Island Defense Bn. Then put them on the island.

End of problem.

Failing that, NRMA2.

But, honestly, the Danes own it.  This is just to suck attention away from our corrupt government.  Did the Vikings ever land in Quebec?  Minnesota?

Tom

 

[Britney Spears]

So when the, umm, war comes, how do we tell each other apart? Our uniforms are fairly similar (green with green dots), we use mostly the same weapons (C7, Leopard...), and I can't imagine visibility is too good up there in the north....it would be a pretty confusing fight!

Also we probably won't have to many Leopards left servicable by then, and they have Leo2s,  so I think we are screwed....

 

[McG]

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/id-arcticviking.htm

http://www.rickbroadhead.com/hans.htm

 

[S McKee]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, however did anyone see the CBC feature a few days ago on Arctic Sovereignty and the increasing number of reports of unidentified floating objects (subs)? The basic gist of the the program was if we don't occupy it or maintain some sort of presence we're going to lose our claim to the contested areas of the north. I remember when I was in the CAR we used to train for Arctic warfare all the time and scheduled exercises in the north. Maybe we should have bought nuke subs instead. Or maybe we should conscript the Coast Guard paint their ships grey and make them part of the navy. My two

 

[tomahawk6]

Its physically impossible to control the entire arctic region. Canada should continue to deploy troops to the region for training purposes.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, however did anyone see the CBC feature a few days ago on Arctic Sovereignty and the increasing number of reports of unidentified floating objects (subs)? The basic gist of the the program was if we don't occupy it or maintain some sort of presence we're going to lose our claim to the contested areas of the north. I remember when I was in the CAR we used to train for Arctic warfare all the time and scheduled exercises in the north. Maybe we should have bought nuke subs instead. Or maybe we should conscript the Coast Guard paint their ships grey and make them part of the navy. My two

Successive Canadians governments have blown hot and cold on the Arctic, for about 35 years it has been, mostly, ignored.

A few pre-1967 highlights, in rough chronological order:

1. The Signal Corps established, in the early '30s, a major cross-Northern Canada radio network.   In the early '60s the civil service began to appropriate several military tasks in the Arctic â “ beginning with the Signal Corps' wireless network â “ which, to be fair, had evolved, rather quickly (in the '30s and '40s) into an essentially commercial telegraph service manned by a bunch of self   taught meteorologists in uniform.   (see: http://www.nwtandy.rcsigs.ca/stations.htm )

2. It was, largely, only because of an alarm sounded by a British diplomat that Canada took any real, official, notice of the Alaska Highway construction in 1942.

3. The Canadian Army, in 1946 (I think) established the Northwest Highway System â “ a Royal Canadian Engineers unit which managed and maintained (mostly by contract) the Canadian 'share' of the Alaska Highway.   It (the HQ) was in Whitehorse â “ I'm not sure the beautiful, well forested, pleasant Yukon qualifies as the Arctic.

4. The first major post war exercise for the CF was Sweetbriar in 1950, also in the Yukon.   It was a joint (army and RCAF) and combined (Canada/US) exercise.   (see: http://publish.uwo.ca/~mcdaniel/Sweetbriar/cover.html )

5. The DEW line was built in the mid '50s but Canada's role was, essentially, that of a very junior 'partner.'

6. The Royal Canadian Navy had an icebreaker back in the '50s: HMCS Labrador (see: http://www.crrstv.net/~gbailey/fore50.htm ).   Amongst other, more famous tasks, Labrador led the annual Eastern Arctic DEW line re-supply convoy in '55.   Labrador was turned over the Coast Guard in the late '50s.


Finally, of course, don't forget the fellows represented by my avatar: the Yukon Field Force (1898/99) - see: http://www.rcrmuseum.ca/html/museum/yukon.html

 

[Slim]

With all the issues surrounding Denmark and Canada why the f*ck are we all aruing over a 3 KM wide chunk of rock?! If its that big a deal lets divide it down the middle and have 1.5 Km to call our own.

Slim

 

[a_majoor]

Hans Island is just the latest in a series of "wake up" calls. We have seen the Northwest passage traversed by all manner of American. Russian, British and probably French nuclear submarines, the oil tanker "Manhatten" transiting August 24, 1969, the growth of international air transport taking "great circle" routes over the arctic, Soviet "Bear" intercontinental bombers intruding throughout the Cold War.....

The response has been typically Canadian; a big flap, followed by fluffing up the pillows and settling back to sleep. Positive responses like the purchase of Canadian nuclear submarines, a "Polar 8" class icebreaker, seeding the Northwest Passage with sensors, or various plans to increase the permanent presence of Canadian Forces in the high arctic (beyond the Ranger patrols) have all met with slow or swift deaths in the halls of power.

If the earth is really undergoing one of its periodic warming spells, then this question has to be answered, since if we choose to ignore it, the Northwest passage will be fair game, and we will probably be stuck paying the bills for cleaning up after fleets of Korean container ships and Russian oil tankers transiting the passage. Saying the job is too hard simply is sticking our head in the sand...

 

[Zartan]

Did the Vikings ever land in Quebec?

It is believed that they did.

 

[vangemeren]

With all the issues surrounding Denmark and Canada why the **** are we all aruing over a 3 KM wide chunk of rock?! If its that big a deal lets divide it down the middle and have 1.5 Km to call our own.

Slim

Its more what is under the water around the island than the rock itself. I also agree with Slim, cut the island in half. Make it into an international peace park or something. The sea border between Canada and Greenland was computer generated, so that it would be half way between Greenland and our arctic islands. It just so happens that the line goes through Hans island. The whole border except the 3 km where Hans island is, is already agreed on. This dispute should be a wake-up call to get a larger presence up north, to solidify our ownership of the islands and the water between them.

Location of Island in relation to border
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nares_strait_border_%28Kennedy_channel%29.png

Article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Island

 

[Pfc_Norup]

An article about the Hans Island issue was published in the Ottawa Citizen
http://www.ambottawa.um.dk/en/menu/PressAndCulture/News/ArticleabouttheHansIslandissue.htm

It is generally accepted that Hans Island was first discovered in 1853 on an expedition done in agreement with the Danish authorities with the participation of the famous Greenlander Hans Hendrik of Fiskenæsset.   His place in the expedition earned Hans Hendrik of Fiskenæsset a place in the history of exploration and the island was named after him - "Hans Øâ ? (Hans Island).

Since then it has been our view that the island, by virtue of its belonging to Greenland, is part of the Kingdom of Denmark.   Relevant evidence in connection with defining the area of Greenland, such as geological and geomorphological evidence, clearly supports this point of view.

In 1933, when the Permanent Court of International Justice declared the legal status of Greenland in favour of Denmark, the Court did inter alia refer to the note from the British Government, acting on behalf of Canada, which in 1920 assured the Danish Government that it recognized Danish sovereignty over Greenland

Denmark appreciates that the larger issue of sovereignty in the North is a real concern to Canada. Greenland, and thus the Kingdom of Denmark is also a part of the North. Denmark is not intruding in the area. We are only trying to protect what we believe to be part of our Kingdom

- Poul E. D. Kristensen - Ambassador of Denmark


A quote from
www.polspy.ca

  Hans Island, is probably more close to being truly Danish than Canadian, for a couple of reasons. It's right off the tip of Greenland, an island around one million square kilometers larger than Quebec, and owned by Denmark, and it's called Hans Island, not Gordon Island. On those two counts alone Denmark has a convincing case.

The only humans that ever go there are Danes, and they travel there via their own military craft, so it's not like they get there on our nickel. If they go there in winter they probably go with one of their four icebreakers. Canada, with it's much more significant arctic territory, doesn't have any icebreakers at all.

- Ray van der Woning

A quote from
www.nunatsiaq.com

"Geologically, it's very Greenlandy. It's flat - it looks like Greenland, but there are other bits of Greenland plate in Canada. Hopefully, the boundaries aren't decided on geology."

- Keith Dewing - Geological Survey of Canada

A quote from
http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2005/07/29/fCanada162.raw.html

Hansen has taken down the Maple Leaf that has fluttered high over his backyard garden and replaced it with another red-and-white one - the Dannebrog of Denmark.

- The Halifax Herald Limited

And the good news:

Next month, to bolster Denmark's claim that the island is Danish, Denmark is planning on sending an inspection ship to visit Hans Island.

- SIKU CIRCUMPOLAR NEWS SERVICE
http://www.nunatsiaq.com/news/nunavut/50729_06.html

 

[Kirkhill]

Leaving aside the enthusiasms of youth, it does make for an interesting exercise to compare what both sides might be able to bring to the "table" and, given the commonality of gear, how might the IFF issue be handled?

We agree to wear safety orange crosses while they wear neon green triangles?

Curious stuff anyway.

 

[Slim]

We agree to wear safety orange crosses while they wear neon green triangles?

;D