Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty

[Pieman]

It is generally accepted that Hans Island was first discovered in 1853 on an expedition done in agreement with the Danish authorities with the participation of the famous Greenlander Hans Hendrik of Fiskenæsset.  His place in the expedition earned Hans Hendrik of Fiskenæsset a place in the history of exploration and the island was named after him - "Hans Øâ ? (Hans Island).

Since then it has been our view that the island, by virtue of its belonging to Greenland, is part of the Kingdom of Denmark.  Relevant evidence in connection with defining the area of Greenland, such as geological and geomorphological evidence, clearly supports this point of view.

These seem like pretty strong arguments over claim of the Island to me. What is Canada's reasoning that it is ours? (Sorry if it was covered in this thread already, I did not manage to go through all of it yet)

I found a picture of the Island in question here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hans_Island_001.jpg

 

[atticus]

I think these say it the best.

 

[Pfc_Norup]

Hello everybody!
Just to clear some of this up I didn't post my first post before page 10 ( I'm sorry if anyone was offended )... and the deleted post contained 2 links to BBC World and was about Danish and Canadian history due to a post about Germany invading Denmark in WW2... The End!

Canada and Denmark is actually very alike... we both live in the shadow/shadows of other more powerfull nations and we both have a strong national sense...
We both love quality beer and bacon and sports. And I'm not kidding: It would be an honor to die fighting for Canada.. But I don't agree about the Hans Island business! Of course we are not going to settle it in this forum, but the internet does give people a way of expressing their feelings and thoughts... I posted on this forum because I would like to tell Canadians what I thought about the "Sovereignty" issue. My first post was a little childish ( my apologies ) but I still think I a have a right to defend what I believe in.

Right now I'm pro splitting the Island ( neon green triangles wouldn't go well with our uniform ), and in the end It will probably be up to some UN Court to decide... But I due feel Denmark has a strong case...


And since this forum is about Hans Island
http://www.pbase.com/jevski/invasion_canada

Maybe there's room for both a LegoLand and a Tim Hortons   ^-^

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Good, reasoned response Norup.

 

[atticus]

Legoland? Lego is Danish? Seriously though, I think the best way would be putting the boarder right down the middle, especially after looking at this picture:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f8/Nares_strait_border_%28Kennedy_channel%29.png

 

[48Highlander]

It's not an issue over the island itself, it's more of a pissing contest between two governments who know they're not going to do anything about it, but don't want to look weak in front of their people.  As such, splitting the island probably won't be a workable solution - neither side is interested in the land itself, and this sort of low-level argument gives them a good opportunity to do some grand-standing.

 

[Pfc_Norup]

It's not an issue over the island itself, it's more of a pissing contest between two governments who know they're not going to do anything about it

I, personly think they do a lot about it. You don't see other uninhabited 1.3 km ² Islands get as much attention as Hans Island...

1984 - Tom Høyem, Danish Minister for Greenland, chartered a helicopter to the Island.
1988 - The Danish Arctic/Ocean patrol cutter HDMS Tulugaq arrived at the island, builds a cairn and placed a flagpole and Danish flag on the island.
1995 - The Danish liaison officer and crew working at Thule Air Base flew in and placed another flagpole and flag.
2001 - Keith Dewing and Chris Harrison, geologists with the Geological Survey of Canada who were mapping northern Ellesmere Island, flew by helicopter to the island.
2002 - The Danish inspection ship HDMS Vædderen arrived and erected a new cairn, flagpole and flag, finding the 1988 flag missing and the 1995 flag in pieces, likely due to weather.
2003 - The crew of the Danish frigate HDMS Triton landed on the island and replaced the Danish flag again.
2005 - Canadian soldiers land on the Island, placing a traditional Inuit stone marker (Inukshuk) with a plaque and a Canadian flag - As a symbolic move, Canadian Defence Minister Bill Graham set foot on the island
2005 (August 4 ) - The Danish Arctic/Ocean patrol cutter HDMS Tulugaq has been sent from Naval Station Grønnedal to Hans Island to assert Danish sovereignty. The cutter is expected to arrive in three weeks time

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Island

 

[Slim]

2005 (August 4 ) - The Danish Arctic/Ocean patrol cutter HDMS Tulugaq has been sent from Naval Station Grønnedal to Hans Island to assert Danish sovereignty. The cutter is expected to arrive in three weeks time

Perhaps, as was suggested, Canada could build a Timmies on the island and serve the Danes coffee and chocolate danishes?

Seriously, it'l be interesting to see how this all plays out.

 

[vangemeren]

...The border is established in the delimitation treaty about the Continental Shelf between Greenland and Canada, ratified by the United Nations on December 17, 1973, and in force since March 13, 1974. At that time, it was the longest shelf boundary treaty ever negotiated and may have been the first ever continental shelf boundary developed by a computer program.

The Government of the Kingdom of Denmark and the Government of Canada, Having decided to establish in the area between Greenland and the Canadian Arctic Islands a dividing line beyond which neither Party exercising its rights under the Convention on the Continental Shelf of April/29/1958 will extend its sovereign rights for the purpose of exploration and exploitation of the natural resources of the continental shelf...

The treaty list 127 points (latitude and longitude) from Davis Strait to the end of Robeson Channel, where Nares Strait runs into Lincoln Sea, to draw geodesic lines between, to form the border. The treaty does not, however, draw a line from point 122 (80 ° 49' 2 - 66 ° 29' 0) to point 123 (80 ° 49' 8 - 66 ° 26' 3), a distance of 875 metres. Hans Island is situated in the centre of this area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Island

Like I advocated on page 11, continue the border as if the island was not there and split the island, make it into joint military instinstallation joint Arctic exercises or something like that. (I know I'm way out of my lane on this part)

 

[48Highlander]

I, personly think they do a lot about it. You don't see other uninhabited 1.3 km ² Islands get as much attention as Hans Island...

Take a look at your list again.  Like I said, it's nothin but grand-standing.  A chance for the politicians to show off, have a bit of a pissing contest, and look like they're doing something in front of the cameras.  It'll never come to a military confrontation, and I doubt they have any interest in ever really settling the dispute through diplomacy.

 

[Harbinger]

Ever hear of Ripple rock near Vancouver Island? Claim that Hans is a hazard to navigation and every summer blow up a little more of it until the problem goes away. No island - no territorial claim over our waters and our resources.

 

[Pfc_Norup]

blow up a little more of it until the problem goes away

Let's do that with Iran and North Korea !!!

It'll never come to a military confrontation, and I doubt they have any interest in ever really settling the dispute through diplomacy

I don't know what's going on in Canada but in Denmark there is a strong feeling about whom the Island belongs to.. In an ongoing poll on tv2.dk 70% ( August 7. ) is pro doing "whatever is necessary"...

 

[48Highlander]

I don't know what's going on in Canada but in Denmark there is a strong feeling about whom the Island belongs to.. In an ongoing poll on tv2.dk 70% ( August 7. ) is pro doing "whatever is necessary"...

Yeah well in a poll here, 70% of respondents said "Denmark has a military?  ???"

Seriously, I didn't think your nation was warlike enough to declare war over a frozen lump of rock.  You sure that the people taking that poll actually understood what "whatever is neccesary" means?

 

[Pfc_Norup]

Yeah well in a poll here, 70% of respondents said "Denmark has a military?

Tell that to the nice people of Southern Iraq..

I didn't think your nation was warlike enough to declare war over a frozen lump of rock

"Upholding the sovereignty of Denmark and securing continued existence and integrity of the country"
http://forsvaret.dk/FKO/eng/Facts+and+Figures/Security+Policy/ Isn't declaring war...

So unless Canadian forces open fire, there will be no conflict/war...

But we do feel strongly about our territory and almost everybody feels that, until a UN court have decided which country it belongs to, we should defend it as the rest of our Kingdom

The Armed Forces shall be able to ascertain and repulse violations of Danish sovereignty and exercise authority in the Danish sovereign area

http://forsvaret.dk/FKO/eng/Facts+and+Figures/Aim+and+tasks/

 

[48Highlander]

So unless Canadian forces open fire, there will be no conflict/war...

But we due feel strongly about our territory and almost everybody feels that, until a UN court have decided which country it belongs to, we should defend it as the rest of our Kingdomhttp://forsvaret.dk/FKO/eng/Facts+and+Figures/Aim+and+tasks/

Hah, I can just see it now.  Two WW1 style trench lines on either side of the line, with no-man's-land in the center.  At least our troops will be ready for it, we've been practicing trench warfare for the last 80 years

 

[Bert]

In all seriousness guys, you gotta take a trip up to Alert/Thule/Hans Island area.  Only
then you will see how pointless the discussion is over Hans especially once the ice and
winter sets in.  It is a rock, in the middle of nowhere, undefendable by both Canada
and Denmark at present.  Future resource gathering, multi-national sovereignty
incursions, and arctic transportation are issues both countries face.  Same problem,
same solution, just takes co-operation.

 

[jmacleod]

Hans Island is about oil. If securing the oil reserves is considered a serious activity, the big oil
companies will look to form a joint venture, in this case with a Danish company or the Government
of Denmark - any confrontation about Hans Island can be resolved over a drink or two, probably
in Iceland. National Post reports that the island was used for "scientific research in 1940" in fact
it would have been an Arctic and North Atlantic weather station, providing weather conditions
for convoy and Naval operations - there were several, including German reporting stations - one
located in Greenland. Canada has been running military operations in the North, since the first one
Operation "Musk Ox" about 1946, nothing new or unusual about that, but in the 'fifties even the
Herman Nelson heaters (to preheat aircraft engines) used to freeze up. MacLeod

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Oil?  Are you saying there is oil under Hans Island or that its about water routes to tpt oil?

 

[Pfc_Norup]

Dewing says it's unlikely that the island will prove to be a treasure trove of minerals or underwater oil reserves for either nation.

"There's some ancient reefs up there and there's probably one of them associated with Hans Island. It could conceivably contain oil, but that is such a far-fetched, unproveable statement now," Dewing said.

"On the Greenland side there are no indication of any oil in any of those reefs. On the Canadian side there's no indication of any oil in any of those reefs. I guess that's the only potential, that there's a reef there and it's chock full of oil, but it's a remote possibility."

Keith Dewing - Geological Survey of Canada http://www.nunatsiaq.com/archives/40409/news/nunavut/40409_08.html

Hans Island rightfully belongs to Greenland, Denmark - As part of the homeland of the Inughuit, it is a part of Greenland..."

Kenn Harper http://www.nunatsiaq.com/archives/40430/opinionEditorial/opinions.html

A plan to open a Danish consulate in Iqaluit shows Denmark and Canada are more neighbours than enemies, despite their dispute over who owns Hans Island

Jane George http://www.nunatsiaq.com/news/nunavut/50805_01.html

 

[Roy Harding]

Yeah well in a poll here, 70% of respondents said "Denmark has a military?  ???"

Seriously, I didn't think your nation was warlike enough to declare war over a frozen lump of rock.  You sure that the people taking that poll actually understood what "whatever is neccesary" means?

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
Alexander Pope

Have some respect for our foreign friends.  Have you ever served alongside Danes?  Do you have anything beyond uninformed opinion upon which to base this assessment of the Danish Military and its' parent society?