Direct entry program?

[MC]

Might be a little early to talk about this, but anyway, I think this is something the forces could have implemented years ago for JTF-2 or the CAR. Do you think it would be wise to have a recruiting program that would guarantee selected applicants a shot at trying out for certain elements of CANSOFCOM following their training? This is done in the US for the special forces of each branch. I think its called the "Navy Seal Challenge" for the Navy, and I know there is a simmilar thing for Army special forces as well as the Marines' Force Recon. Basically what it is, is just a guarantee that after you finish training you are given a shot at trying out for one of these elite units. If you fail, you have to do serve for the remainder of your contract in whatever you were initially trained in.

The obvious advantages are that it attracs many strong candidates to the army in general but also to these elite units. The fact they'd be so young would be a physical advantage I guess, but I imagine a disadvantage also because of lack of experience, or a certain immaturity, etc. I imagine there could be an issue the "motivation" of the vast majority of people who end up being turned back at the try out.

thoughts?

 

[Sf2]

won't work on the aviation side.....you need some time on the machine before you can give it a shot.

 

[MdB]

In the Canadian Army, you can volunteer for the JTF-2, there's no such thing as a restraint on the number of applicants for JTF-2 since the washout rate is so high the unit recruits every year.

A mandatory of 2 years in the CF means that you are already commited and that you have the maturity to go on. I don't think the promise of 'getting a shot at JTF-2' is an incentive as the matters are right now.

As for CSOR, I don't know. But, why an applicant should deserve a try at an SF/SOF unit when there's plenty of challenges in the military to prove yourself and to your chain of command?

The recruiting could promise it, but in my mind this would be a bit phony in that if you work hard, you'll have your try anyway.

 

[MC]

won't work on the aviation side.....you need some time on the machine before you can give it a shot.

hence getting the opportunity AFTER your training .. but yeah I guess I had in mind infantry type stuff.

 

[Sf2]

training only gives you around 70-80 hrs....no where near the req'd amount of time desired

 

[MC]

In the Canadian Army, you can volunteer for the JTF-2, there's no such thing as a restraint on the number of applicants for JTF-2 since the washout rate is so high the unit recruits every year.

A mandatory of 2 years in the CF means that you are already commited and that you have the maturity to go on. I don't think the promise of 'getting a shot at JTF-2' is an incentive as the matters are right now.

As for CSOR, I don't know. But, why an applicant should deserve a try at an SF/SOF unit when there's plenty of challenges in the military to prove yourself and to your chain of command?

The recruiting could promise it, but in my mind this would be a bit phony in that if you work hard, you'll have your try anyway.

well I guess its more to get people's attention.. I think its a GREAT recruiting pitch, basically. The 2 year rule would almost be respected.. it takes what 1-1.5 years to get all your occupation training in ?

 

[kj_gully]

I think its a great idea. . We are trying it ( SAR Tech) to "drag trawl" for suitable candidates. There are only so many 'desirables" in our tiny military, and it is naive to think that the only pers suitable are currently serving in the 60ish thousand CF. Our recruit will enlist as a Sar tech, do basic training, then attend selection alongside our potential remusters. BTW, there will be no impact on the # of remusters taken, any Civilians passing will be "bonus". There will be 2 spots reserved for direct entries, and up to 6 vying for the spots. If any are selected, they will attend course. Those who wash out will be offered another trade or released, @ their choosing.

 

[ghazise]

A direct entry into Special Forces is not a good idea, an 18 year old right out of high school does not have the physical or mental endurance to go through that level of training,,, and you are correct the US does allow for direct entry in SEALS, Force Recon, but the failure rate for these guys (direct entry)  is above close to a 100%,,, it is a great recruiting tool, you tell a high school jock that they are signed up for special forces and it's a done deal,,, but they can't do it,,, I have known quite a few Marines and Corpsman who came in under those programs, and the fact is it takes a good couple of years of training to build the endurance necessary,   

 

[kj_gully]

As someone who has remustered ..3 times, I know what you are talking about. We won't take any 18 year old off the street. The recruitors will look at a person's "resume" . I know there aren't too many people that could be recruited "off the street", but say an ex US marine recon soldier who has immigrated to Canada? Why the hell not?

 

[ghazise]

A CF member in the US military may be considered as prior-service, I would assume a similar qualification would be given to any US member for the CF, so they would not be a Direct-entry,,, my concern is with anyone with no military experience being allowed to directly enter the SF training pipeline, especially kids right out of highschool,

"ex US marine recon soldier " 

there are no ex-Marines, just former Marines, and Marines are never referred to as soldiers, maybe jarhead, jar-rine, teufflehunden, devil-dog, white-devil, white-sleeved devil, leatherneck, troop, bus-rider, sea-soldier, soldiers of the sea,,,

 

[MC]

A direct entry into Special Forces is not a good idea, an 18 year old right out of high school does not have the physical or mental endurance to go through that level of training,,, and you are correct the US does allow for direct entry in SEALS, Force Recon, but the failure rate for these guys (direct entry)  is above close to a 100%,,, it is a great recruiting tool, you tell a high school jock that they are signed up for special forces and it's a done deal,,, but they can't do it,,, I have known quite a few Marines and Corpsman who came in under those programs, and the fact is it takes a good couple of years of training to build the endurance necessary,   

I agree that it is essentially a good recruiting tool..  but as for the failure rate, shouldn't it be about 90%, even for people who have military experience? and do all those kids who fail end up really dissapointed to be stuck in the military anyway? you'd think somewhere if they applied they didn't JUST want to be a ninja, something about the military in general interested them, so it mustn't be that bad. I bet some of those corpsmen you talked about are just glad to be marines now.

 

[kj_gully]

"ex US marine recon soldier " 

there are no ex-Marines, just former Marines, and Marines are never referred to as soldiers, maybe jarhead, jar-rine, teufflehunden, devil-dog, white-devil, white-sleeved devil, leatherneck, troop, bus-rider, sea-soldier, soldiers of the sea,,,
[/quote]

Whoops, sorry, and I do mean that. I should known better, I watched "heartbreak ridge " enough times to know that.

 

[GO!!!]

I agree that it is essentially a good recruiting tool..  but as for the failure rate, shouldn't it be about 90%, even for people who have military experience? and do all those kids who fail end up really dissapointed to be stuck in the military anyway? you'd think somewhere if they applied they didn't JUST want to be a ninja, something about the military in general interested them, so it mustn't be that bad. I bet some of those corpsmen you talked about are just glad to be marines now.

Why should the failure rate be 90%?

Many young people are totally enamoured with the idea that they are the "best of the best", so they are an easy sell when it comes to stuff like this. The idea that they could be considered "elite" with just a few weeks of cool trg appeals to them, just as the thought of easy money appeals to suckers everywhere.

Reality crashes down at battle school when they realise that hitting puberty two years early does'nt matter there, unlike high school football - and that their abilities are assessed, not encouraged or given participation badges. I think that onion is right, they would have a high failure rate, but then a Bn gets them, and they can stick around, work out and up, and try again next year.

 

[El Jefe]

The time has come for the folks at NDHQ to expend the recruiting effort of the high speed occupations - SAR Tech, CSOR, Clearance Divers, and dare I say JTF2.  My reasoning behind this is quite simple, we just don't have the people in the CF to fully support all this trades.  In service recruiting is only going to get harder and sadly some of the capabilities might be reduced in the long term if planning for a solution does not start today.  We only have to look to our allies: Australia, US, UK, and Norway just to name a few.  They have adapted their training pipelines to accommodate people from the street in order to meet their manning requirements without compromising standards. 

The green berets for example, take someone from the street that has met fitness standards. They go through basic, infantry school, an intermediate course to prep them for selection (SOPC) and then go straight to SFAS with current in service candidates.  They have had good results with this.  The USAF does this for their PJs, and the USN has a program in place for EOD.  People that do not make through are committed to 3 years service afterwards.  We have all to gain from implementing this type of program.  I understand this is easier said than done.  There will have to be training pipelines established and that in itself is an enormous undertaking.  But looking into the future and the potential for success in an option that cannot be overlooked.  In the CF we could create a training pipeline just to this.

In Canada we have really switched on FIT and MATURE young people that are capable of doing this - We need to tap into this resource.  Not too mention that it would be a wonderful recruiting tool.

I'm just trying to get some discussion going on this.  Thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers,

El Jefe

 

[BernDawg]

Thoughts on this eh.  Well I think potential members of the SF units should have a solid background in the forces and to me that would, at the very least, be a BE (3 yrs for the unwashed).  This gives the member an appreciation for where he's been and where he is.
BD

 

[kincanucks]

Well you were going good until this:

In Canada we have really switched on FIT and MATURE young people that are capable of doing this

After six years of recruiting I saw very few of these.  Not saying they are not out there but it is the minority and sticking to our current selection process for CSOR and JTF2 is still the way to go.  SAR (very few meet the basic requirements) and Clearance Diver (there are civilian qualified CDs out there but they are, for the majority, already in their late thirties) so the selection process shouldn't change for them either.  I know SAR has open to direct entries but we will have to wait and see if that was successful or not.  I would bet that it wasn't.

 

[rmacqueen]

Although you have pointed out that the SF take direct entry the ultra elite, ie SEALS, Rangers, etc do not.

The "green berets", while a specialized unit, are actually not an elite a long the lines of JTF2 or the SAS.  A lot of the SF missions are of a political nature and not the covert missions of the elite units.  For example, the green berets would go in to liaise with leaders of local guerrilla groups and advise/assist on operations but rarely be used for quick insertions with a specific mission.  Hence there were SF people on the ground with the Northern Alliance in the early days of the Afghan war giving advice and spotting for US air while the elite units were operating in the mountains going after AQ.

Which brings me to your suggestion.  JTF/CSOR recruit from existing units rather than direct entry for a number of reasons.  Serving members already have basic weapons knowledge, military discipline, hopefully some physical fitness and, probably most importantly, mental preparedness.  A serving soldier who volunteers would have more realistic idea of what they are getting into, a sense of CF values and some knowledge of the force they are volunteering for.  Also, they would already have instilled in them the sense of team which is so necessary in the elite forces.  In a way it is a win/win situation, the CF gets people while the CSOR uses it to filter out the people who wouldn't cut it and thus saves time and money on training.

 

[The_Falcon]

Although you have pointed out that the SF take direct entry the ultra elite, ie SEALS, Rangers, etc do not.

In point of fact USN SEALS do offer direct entry for fresh off the street recruits.  It called the SEAL Challenge Contract http://www.seal.navy.mil/seal/contractinstructions.aspx

 

[HItorMiss]

Although you have pointed out that the SF take direct entry the ultra elite, ie SEALS, Rangers, etc do not.

Rangers are the low men on the SOCOM totem pole but I digress on the silly who is more elite game...

The Rangers offer a Direct Entry system as well call the 11X Contract. All US Special Operations Units minus 1 to my current knowledge and research offer a direct entry contract because they have all had to dramatically incease the numbers of SOF troops in their Military.

 

[HItorMiss]

I can try...

I mean in point of fact the US SF have had a very high rate of pass for 18X contract Applicants in both the SFAS and the Q course itself, I think it brears more study in Canada.