• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

Kirkhill

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
2,908
Points
1,060
MM:

I would argue that those "volunteers" had just moved up the scale from "volunteers" to "part-time employees".

That shouldn't discount the contributions of all the unpaid volunteers serving small communities.

Why wouldn't you want to take advantage of freely offered hours?
 

GR66

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
719
Points
1,040
I don't mean to suggest that in any way a semi-volunteer Militia would in any way be free.  It might however be one way of meeting the goal of increasing the size of the Reserves without bearing an unrealistic cost to do so.

No issue with requiriing the volunteers to put in a minimum number of hours per year.  How can they be trusted to be able to perform if deployed if they're not putting in the time to learn and practice their skills?  And no issue with having them protected in case they are injured while training or enacting job protection legislation for Reservists who are called up as has been widely suggested by others.  Ther will certainly be admin costs to increasing the size of units and providing in-unit training and also equipment costs like uniforms (although maybe the volunteers could be issued cheaper old-style "combats" instead of CADPAT, etc.).

If the goal however is to increase the size of the Reserves then this is one possible way to increase the number of troops on the base of the rank pyramid while focusing the majority of the pay expenses on the smaller, upper levels of the pyramid. 

If currently there are 21,000 positions on the books, and only 13,944 reservists are considered active and ready for service as was mentioned up thread, how many of those are represented by members that are not yet trade trained?  These would be volunteers in the new system which would open up a lot more positions for those that ARE trade qualified as paid reservist positions.

It's only a very rough idea and I have no idea if it would work for Air/Naval Reserve units, but possibly a starting point?
 

krimynal

Sr. Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
The only problem I see with that is ,

Most of the people in the reserve are part time because they are currently at school , which costs a small fortune. 
Here in Quebec ( I don't know if it's the same everywhere ) if you work too much , the government will cease some of the student loans that helps you to go to school in the first place.
I for one was doing a degree 2 years ago while in the reserve.  When I made my taxes at the end of the year , initially the government was giving me 2000$ in loans and 3500$ in scolarship ( that I didn't have to give back).

Once they saw how much money I made with the army ( which wasn't much ) they removed all my scolarship and left me with only the loans , So I now was in debt of 3500$ because I wanted to work while in school.

If you start taking some students , ask them to train on nights / weekends.  To manage full time students ( which dosen't pay ) and tell them that while basic training they won't get a paycheck neither.
There is no way these kids will be able to survive and complete a degree or any type of higher education without money.  The idea is good ... but the outcome will be dramatic
 
L

LightFighter

Guest
Or instead of this volunteer militia.. We stick with recruiting people into the Reserves, fully train them in a MOSID and have them capable of deploying on domestic and international operations. 


As well, amalgamating Reserve units is required IMO, no point in having LCol/CWO commanding a "battalion" that is a Company minus sized organization.. Which realistically may be a platoon plus sized unit if you only count the people that actually show up, and go on exercise on a regular basis.
 

Journeyman

Army.ca Legend
Subscriber
Reaction score
916
Points
940
GR66 said:
If the biggest need is manpower but there is also little political will to provide more money, then maybe we could look at a variation on earlier discussions about a volunteer militia.
I think that would be a non-starter.  Again, go back to the Auditor-General's report (pp. 35-40) and look at how many units are currently parading at half of their optimal strength or less -- and that's while they're getting paid.  I can't imagine any significant improvement by saying "you're going to get the same amount of cock, but we're not going to pay you."  :dunno:


mariomike said:
Even Auxiliary members of the police department, must volunteer ( although unpaid, while on duty they must be covered by WSIB ) a minimum of 150 hours per year. From what I have read in this tread, a paid Reservist can parade as little as 12 days / 24 nights a year. How many days / nights would an unpaid Reservist ( aka militia, auxiliary, volunteer ) be required to show up?

As far as volunteer firefighters are concerned, take a look at some of the collective agreements negotiated by their union, including "Wages and Rates of Pay",
http://www2.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/3EF302D1-5D1A-4BCD-B9C6-D2A54F965939/0/GHVFFA911Jan12012Dec312015CollectiveAgreement.pdf

Volunteer firefighters vote overwhelmingly to unionize
http://www.mykawartha.com/news-story/4383230-volunteer-firefighters-vote-overwhelmingly-to-unionize-update/

Volunteer firefighters now unionized
http://www.thesudburystar.com/2013/02/13/volunteer-firefighters-now-unionized
You do a great job as the sites' 'previous thread librarian.'  :nod: 
....however not every post you make personally has to be linked to Toronto Emergency Services.  Honest.

The points are irrelevant; citing WSIB and some firefighters unionizing is simply a fallacious argument ("Association Fallacy" if you're interested).  You do  know that neither the Reserves nor even the Reg Force are unionized.  It is therefore massively unlikely that the chain of command will have to deal with any volunteer militia collective bargaining issues.

 

mariomike

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
586
Points
1,260
Journeyman said:
You do a great job as the sites' 'previous thread librarian.'  :nod: 
....however not every post you make personally has to be linked to Toronto Emergency Services.  Honest.

The points are irrelevant; citing WSIB and some firefighters unionizing is simply a fallacious argument ("Association Fallacy" if you're interested).  You do  know that neither the Reserves nor even the Reg Force are unionized.  It is therefore massively unlikely that the chain of command will have to deal with any volunteer militia collective bargaining issues.

:ignore: :)
 

Attachments

  • fff.jpg
    fff.jpg
    34.5 KB · Views: 200

CountDC

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
24
Points
480
mariomike said:
From what I have read in this tread, a paid Reservist can parade as little as 12 days / 24 nights a year. How many days / nights would an unpaid Reservist ( aka militia, auxiliary, volunteer ) be required to show up?

They don't even have to parade 12 days/24 Nights.  Once in a 30 day period that has 3 scheduled parades in it if the unit will actually enforce the NES policy.  Depending on a unit parade schedule this could be as little as 7 parades for a unit that stands up in Sep and stands down in May.  I have seen a unit schedule based on budget restrictions in the past consist of Sep - Nov, stand down for Dec, Jan/Feb and Mar have evenings designated as on ramps if money was available so 5 evening parades kept the mbrs safe for that period.  Apr started the new FY so they had to do 1 day in Apr and 1 Day in May to finish off the training year.
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
2,908
Points
1,060
Journeyman said:
I think that would be a non-starter.  Again, go back to the Auditor-General's report (pp. 35-40) and look at how many units are currently parading at half of their optimal strength or less -- and that's while they're getting paid.  I can't imagine any significant improvement by saying "you're going to get the same amount of cock, but we're not going to pay you."  :dunno:

And yet:

144,250 Canadians were volunteer firefighters in 2013-2015 (vice 25,550 career firefighters)
http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/research/nfpa-reports/fire-service-statistics/oscanadafirefighters.pdf?la=en

In addition

75,000 Canadians volunteered to assist the RCMP in its duties, including 1,600 auxilliary constables
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/vol-ben/index-eng.htm
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ccaps-spcca/auxil-eng.htm

4,000 Canadians volunteer for the Canadian Coast Guard Auxilliary
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/College-and-Careers/Volunteers

2,800 Canadians volunteer for CASARA (Civil Air Search and Rescue Association)
http://www.casara.ca/about-casara/

>20,000 Canadians volunteer for the Red Cross
http://www.redcross.ca/volunteer/volunteer-with-us

12,000 Canadians volunteer for St John's Ambulance (1,000,000 hours per year or 80 hours per person average)
https://www.sja.ca/English/How-You-Can-Help/Pages/Volunteer/Volunteer-Landing.aspx

12,000 Canadians volunteer for Ground Search and Rescue teams (SARVAC)
http://sarvac.ca/about/

There is a pool of more than 270,000 Canadians already volunteering their services, many of them taking on physically demanding and hazardous tasks.

You don't think that some of those would be suitable candidates for an unpaid Militia?

In my opinion it isn't about the pay.  It is about the organization.





 

trustnoone73

New Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ArmyRick said:
Realistic roles for reservist
1. Domestic Operations (Most likely disaster related, may be security related like Olympics or G20 stuff)
2. Individual Augmentation for Reg F (Has worked and will continue to work)
3. Platoon/Troop and Company/squadron Deployment (in roles like Force Protection)
4. Specialist roles such as IA

.... MANPOWER, more troops, our greatest resource. I would scarifice really cool gear like 120mm Mortars or MBT for additional troops. Thats me.
For kit, the stuff we need as a higher priority is personal kit (a real issue right now), radios, log vehicles (newer versions of MLVW and other utility vehicles) and ensure we have adequate small arms (do not think that an issue at this time. Anybody seeing different?)

1 & 3 are only ever going to be in the context of 2. 2 workes because we are a military that is reg force centric.

Define what any reserve is, either strategic or tactical, and you get augmentation.  It's not sexy, but that is exactly what it is.

I kinda like the idea of 120mm mortars.  I think a mortar group provides a lot of bang for the buck. 

Journeyman said:
The OAG Report states that the Reserves are tasked with four roles already: Influence Activities; Convoy Escort; Force Protection; and Persistent Surveillance -- noting that only IA has been provided with some semblance of guidance and training. 

So far as I know there are zero reserves providing Convoy Ecsort or Force Pro to anyone in high readyness or on R2HR I serviously doubt the Reserve Force has the platforms or the training to do this outside of a mission specific task with appropriate work up training.  As a rolls those are dubious.  I have no idea what is meant by persistent surveillance in a PRes context.  I suspect this is a Rangers roll.

The roll for the green PRes is really augmentation. The capability should be to provide augmentation up to two down:  i.e. a Bde a Coy, a unit can provide a Pl,..etc.  Structure:  what ever it takes to do that, whether regimental systems or combined unit tactical groupings.

The OAG states that "Only a fraction of its troops properly trained, equipped and fit for international operations and domestic emergencies."  Yes, so what?  A fully trained deployable reserve force is neither neccessary nor realistic.  Stop trying to impose the impossible.
 

blacktriangle

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
253
Points
880
Provide real job protection, force reservists to sign a binding contract upon completion of BMQ or some other milestone, and pay them a salary. Give them the training and equipment required to function, but stop trying to train PRes in skillsets that even the RegF has trouble maintaining.

Define a realistic and achievable end state for the PRes, give them the recruiting and funding they need, and organize them in a sensible manner. Squash every reserve council or special interest group that gets in the way...

 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
2,908
Points
1,060
Lunchmeat:

Not talking about stopping pay to Reservists.  Talking about inviting more people to join on a voluntary basis.

The basic issues in attracting people, in my mind are:

Letting them through the door (reducing the number of barriers to enrolment)
Keeping them (engaging them by supplying useful and interesting training and giving them opportunities to serve and advance).

Volunteer Militia could provide feedstock for a Part Time, Paid, Reserve.

See here  http://army.ca/forums/threads/122267.0

A difference between us and the Danes is that all of our separate volunteer groups listed above are centralized through the Danish Homeguard - an unpaid organization with a percentage them that are paid for standing by for rapid deployment.
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
2,908
Points
1,060
Spectrum said:
Provide real job protection, force reservists to sign a binding contract upon completion of BMQ or some other milestone, and pay them a salary. Give them the training and equipment required to function, but stop trying to train PRes in skillsets that even the RegF has trouble maintaining.

Define a realistic and achievable end state for the PRes, give them the recruiting and funding they need, and organize them in a sensible manner. Squash every reserve council or special interest group that gets in the way...

I agree with everything but your first two comments.  Forcing, either reservists or employers, will not get you where you want to be.  People will not join the reserves.  Employers will not hire reservists.  These things are known from the experience in Canada, Britain and the US.
 

blacktriangle

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
253
Points
880
Chris Pook said:
I agree with everything but your first two comments.  Forcing, either reservists or employers, will not get you where you want to be.  People will not join the reserves.  Employers will not hire reservists.  These things are known from the experience in Canada, Britain and the US.

Well if that's truly the case, then nothing positive will come out of more investment into the PRes. If I were in charge, why would I allocate my limited resources to train and equip a "reserve" that won't actually function in that context? I'd be much more inclined to focus on funding the RegF in that case. I'd leave the PRes "status quo" and I'd take every chance to "steal" the best and brightest of the PRes for individual augmentation or CT. The golden carrot works, I've seen it.

 

Fishbone Jones

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
738
Points
1,060
100  pages dating to 2001. Nothing has changed, including the ideas. Keep them coming though , someone might eventually get a good  idea from here and make it work.
 

krimynal

Sr. Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Spectrum said:
Well if that's truly the case, then nothing positive will come out of more investment into the PRes. If I were in charge, why would I allocate my limited resources to train and equip a "reserve" that won't actually function in that context? I'd be much more inclined to focus on funding the RegF in that case. I'd leave the PRes "status quo" and I'd take every chance to "steal" the best and brightest of the PRes for individual augmentation or CT. The golden carrot works, I've seen it.

at least we can agree that right now , the CT process is a real big problem.  At my reserve unit , once they knew that I applied for a transfert , the first thing my COC said to the people working at operation was : There is no point in giving him any full time or courses since he is going to leave anyways.
With that mindset , it's pretty much impossible to keep someone in.  I know it's all about budget ... but at the end of the day, if someone want's to go regF then why would he be penalised ??

 

cavalryman

Sr. Member
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
63
Points
330
recceguy said:
100  pages dating to 2001. Nothing has changed, including the ideas. Keep them coming though , someone might eventually get a good  idea from here and make it work.
Isn't that how we got pips and crowns?  >:D
 

dapaterson

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
5,628
Points
990
Not all units adopt the "CT in, he's dead to us" mindset.  Some units and unit command teams encourage and support those trying to component transfer - you know, the old "Know your soldiers, and look out for their welfare" thing.
 

krimynal

Sr. Member
Reaction score
0
Points
0
sadly because they decided to boycott me from all the courses and everything. That's one of the main reason why I decided to release and re-apply directly RegF.  But hey , that's my personnal story don't want to drift from the original posts !
 

PuckChaser

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Mentor
Reaction score
1,400
Points
1,060
Volunteer firefighters are not volunteers. They're like reservists that are on call. They show up, they get paid. That's not a true volunteer.
 
Top