Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[markppcli]

Fair enough but in my opinion they aren't overly well informed reform ideas. How do you deal with the lost time from cut training? Reservists aren't coming in every weekend for nine months. I'm all for reform, but it needs to make sense.

Where is this every weekend coming from? Because the other half of the arguments about the reserves are that units are only allocated 34 training days per soldier. It can’t be both.

 

[Rudburg]

Where is this every weekend coming from? Because the other half of the arguments about the reserves are that units are only allocated 34 training days per soldier. It can’t be both.

Most ARes units already run about one training weekend a month covering IBTS, Ceremonial activities or CT. That's about 8 weekends from September to May.

BMQs and many other IT courses (Dvr Whl, Comms, etc) run on weekends through the training year. Typically this is about two weekends a month for the duration of the course (ie 11 weekends for a BMQ, alternating weekends for about six months). These courses draw on the available pool of MCpl-WO pers as instructors, and Pte-Cpl as students. Ideally, you would have a pool of instructors who are not required to participate in other unit training activities, but that is unrealistic as very few ARes units can spare the junior leaders. For the most part, BMQ instructors are also Section Commanders within the unit's normal organization.

Note that IT does not count towards the 30-ish days per year.

Parade nights are inefficient, but the second order effects of changing that system have to be considered. Taking away parade nights in favour of additional training weekends means that most pers will be asked to work at least two weekends per month, and others (generally at the leadership ranks) even more.

 

[PrairieFella]

Most ARes units already run about one training weekend a month covering IBTS, Ceremonial activities or CT. That's about 8 weekends from September to May.

BMQs and many other IT courses (Dvr Whl, Comms, etc) run on weekends through the training year. Typically this is about two weekends a month for the duration of the course (ie 11 weekends for a BMQ, alternating weekends for about six months). These courses draw on the available pool of MCpl-WO pers as instructors, and Pte-Cpl as students. Ideally, you would have a pool of instructors who are not required to participate in other unit training activities, but that is unrealistic as very few ARes units can spare the junior leaders. For the most part, BMQ instructors are also Section Commanders within the unit's normal organization.

Note that IT does not count towards the 30-ish days per year.

Parade nights are inefficient, but the second order effects of changing that system have to be considered. Taking away parade nights in favour of additional training weekends means that most pers will be asked to work at least two weekends per month, and others (generally at the leadership ranks) even more.

Further at my unit we're already at two weekends and up to three rarely.

 

[markppcli]

Most ARes units already run about one training weekend a month covering IBTS, Ceremonial activities or CT. That's about 8 weekends from September to May.

I think we can safely cut about…. All of the ceremonial duties Tbf.

BMQs and many other IT courses (Dvr Whl, Comms, etc) run on weekends through the training year. Typically this is about two weekends a month for the duration of the course (ie 11 weekends for a BMQ, alternating weekends for about six months). These courses draw on the available pool of MCpl-WO pers as instructors, and Pte-Cpl as students. Ideally, you would have a pool of instructors who are not required to participate in other unit training activities, but that is unrealistic as very few ARes units can spare the junior leaders. For the most part, BMQ instructors are also Section Commanders within the unit's normal organization.

Note that IT does not count towards the 30-ish days per year.

Fair point, so the actual reality is a great deal more training than the 34 days allotted.

Parade nights are inefficient, but the second order effects of changing that system have to be considered. Taking away parade nights in favour of additional training weekends means that most pers will be asked to work at least two weekends per month, and others (generally at the leadership ranks) even more.

my biggest reason for being anti parade nights is not just the cost benefits of switching, it’s the ability to adjust the whole structure. We have chunks of the population that can’t realistically drive to a parade night, and we can have longer commutes for full weekends which means we can better mass units.

 

[Rudburg]

I think we can safely cut about…. All of the ceremonial duties Tbf.

I'm sure most soldiers would agree (I certainly do). In most cases there aren't many true ceremonial days in the annual calendar, but it depends on the unit.

my biggest reason for being anti parade nights is not just the cost benefits of switching, it’s the ability to adjust the whole structure. We have chunks of the population that can’t realistically drive to a parade night, and we can have longer commutes for full weekends which means we can better mass units.

That is certainly a potential benefit, particularly for some of the more rural units. I seem to recall that about 15 years ago there were a few units in LFWA that experimented with that approach, and for that reason - they had too many senior leaders who lived far away from the armouries. I'm not sure if they still do.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think we can safely cut about…. All of the ceremonial duties Tbf.



Fair point, so the actual reality is a great deal more training than the 34 days allotted.



my biggest reason for being anti parade nights is not just the cost benefits of switching, it’s the ability to adjust the whole structure. We have chunks of the population that can’t realistically drive to a parade night, and we can have longer commutes for full weekends which means we can better mass units.

I found that if you had four parade nights, and one weekend ex, per month you were pretty much guaranteed to see every soldier at least once monthly. The risk of missing people was diversified.

When we tried the two weekends a month, and no weeknight parades, it was easy to go weeks without connecting with some troops whose schedules didn't allow them to attend two weekends. Students need to study, families need to do family things, some people have more than one job... etc

 

[Blackadder1916]

The comparison of which model (the US of 1 wkend/mth or the Cdn of one evening a wk plus additional wkends) provides the best value is often made. However, I've yet to see any mention about the different pay protocol between the two. While we are all familiar with the Canadian practice of a half days pay for an evening (less than 6 hrs) and a full days pay for up to 24, the Americans breakdown that two day weekend into four "drill periods". A drill period is defined as a four hour block and each is paid the full day rate; thus the American reservist is paid four days pay for participating in a two day weekend "Battle Assembly" (BA - USA term). BAs are limited to 48 drill periods per year. Pay for most other activities, such as their Annual Training (AT) - the 14 days once a year, is a straight one day's pay for each calendar day.

 

[Seyek]

I think we can safely cut about…. All of the ceremonial duties Tbf.



Fair point, so the actual reality is a great deal more training than the 34 days allotted.



my biggest reason for being anti parade nights is not just the cost benefits of switching, it’s the ability to adjust the whole structure. We have chunks of the population that can’t realistically drive to a parade night, and we can have longer commutes for full weekends which means we can better mass units.

2-3 weekends a month would align with my experiences too, a few years ago we had a couple periods of a few months where a lot of leadership was in every weekend, plus the parade/admin nights. Fair number of troops doing GDs or attending courses too.

If you amalgamated/grouped units you'd have an easier time., as you could marry up available troops and leaders from across multiple units. You could have split weekend/weeknight companies/squadrons/batteries what have you based on the sort of availability that works better for their respective members. Makes it easier to utilize the limited equipment too. Still might run into a limited leadership issue, but it might be easier to bring some of those experienced leaders who are halfway out because they can't make the commitment, but can make a Saturday twice a month instead of every parade night and the weekend exercises.

 

[MilEME09]

For those arguing against the retention of the messes, and that consider socializing anathema -

How many people, in the absence of messes, would head down to the nearest pub after training?

That's Currie in calgary right now, after the north east armoury closed all units had their mess as Mawata, but I'm not driving down town to a building with no parking just for a pint. Most of svc battalion goes to a pub a few minutes up the road instead, we used to go to wild rose next store but post covid they closed right at 10.

 

[ueo]

Moss Park Armoury opened in the 60s.

Yep! Betcha there are many messes internally as 48th wont share with QORC etc.

 

[Remius]

Yep! Betcha there are many messes internally as 48th wont share with QORC etc.

And likely why some people have the impression that everywhere else must be like that.

 

[MilEME09]

And likely why some people have the impression that everywhere else must be like that.

A lot of those old buildings have a proper Jr, Snr NCO and officer mess, but that is a rarity now. I usually see combined Snr NCO/Officer messes, and a JR ranks. In the case of Debney they turned the Jr ranks into accommodations for courses, and turned the Snr mess into the Jr, moved the snr ncos in with the officers, all separated by a dividing wall in the room. I don't know how things are in other parts of the country but a lot of people where i am dont see a lot going on at the jr ranks, doesn't matter who we vote in charge, so people dont go.

 

[Remius]

A lot of those old buildings have a proper Jr, Snr NCO and officer mess, but that is a rarity now. I usually see combined Snr NCO/Officer messes, and a JR ranks. In the case of Debney they turned the Jr ranks into accommodations for courses, and turned the Snr mess into the Jr, moved the snr ncos in with the officers, all separated by a dividing wall in the room. I don't know how things are in other parts of the country but a lot of people where i am dont see a lot going on at the jr ranks, doesn't matter who we vote in charge, so people dont go.

Messes are dying off I think.

All three of ours are very active. Our Jrs have 3 to 4 of their own events a year. But I accept that it might be an outlier. But it is also a factor of mess and unit culture. We’ve always had a healthy mess life. It’s also not forced and is more natural. We still do traditional things but some traditions have been shelved. We stopped doing ladies dining in. Our regimental birthday activity used to be a mess dinner and is now an afternoon at a pub with the mess paying for the food.

Things evolve. But your point is well made. Some messes would die outright if it wasn’t for forced membership.

 

[dapaterson]

Things evolve. But your point is well made. Some messes would die outright if it wasn’t for forced membership.

 

[Remius]

I’m of the opinion that it should be a supply and demand thing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Messes are dying off I think.

All three of ours are very active. Our Jrs have 3 to 4 of their own events a year. But I accept that it might be an outlier. But it is also a factor of mess and unit culture. We’ve always had a healthy mess life. It’s also not forced and is more natural. We still do traditional things but some traditions have been shelved. We stopped doing ladies dining in. Our regimental birthday activity used to be a mess dinner and is now an afternoon at a pub with the mess paying for the food.

Things evolve. But your point is well made. Some messes would die outright if it wasn’t for forced membership.

Like everything else in the ARes world the messes 'come and go' depending on who's in charge and what's going on around them, and over about 30 years I definitely saw that patten play out in more than one unit.

My guess is that - in general - they're still feeling the effects of COVID shutdowns in various ways and, not being as resilient as you average local pub, will need a few years to get back to where they were pre-COVID.

Regardless, it's still a hugely time consuming secondary duty that can be a real challenge for people trying to do their ARes jobs as well as have a normal life outside of the militia... as I discovered when I was appointed PMC on at least two occasions...

 

[KevinB]

For those arguing against the retention of the messes, and that consider socializing anathema -

How many people, in the absence of messes, would head down to the nearest pub after training?

The problem with many messes is they are an admin burden, and a liability.
Bar and Bar Stock need to be dealt with - and for a Reserve unit that is only using it basically 1 night a week, that is a colossal waste of space and time. Joint messes (multiple units) create their own problems. Plus the whole ‘forced fun’ aspect isn’t nearly fun.

I'm probably too Americanized now - but my opinion is that drinking in uniform after work shouldn't be encouraged.

Have a section, platoon or troop BBQ at someone’s house if you want to, but don’t try to force troops into some sort of activity on their off time.

 

[Eaglelord17]

They are a huge admin burden thanks to all the new (or newer) NPF rules. I remember when they switched from the accounts being held by the mess itself to the one giant super account. That alone created tons of admin work for the Treasurer and made it much more difficult for the mess to function.

Honestly with all the rules and regulations surrounding it there it seemed like you spent more time doing NPF things than actual military things.

 

[daftandbarmy]

They are a huge admin burden thanks to all the new (or newer) NPF rules. I remember when they switched from the accounts being held by the mess itself to the one giant super account. That alone created tons of admin work for the Treasurer and made it much more difficult for the mess to function.

Honestly with all the rules and regulations surrounding it there it seemed like you spent more time doing NPF things than actual military things.

And then Bde HQ enters the fray...

 

[FJAG]

Yep! Betcha there are many messes internally as 48th wont share with QORC etc.

I don't know how Moss Park is configured these days but I was there when it opened. It was built for four units: the QOR, 48th, 7th Toronto and the RCEME and RCASC coys that would later amalgamate into a service bn. The basement had a vehicle park and weapons and supply stores. The parade square floor had offices for all the units and a total of four classrooms - one in each corner. The upper deck was nothing but messes - an officers mess and Sgts mess for each unit and a single wet and single dry canteen for all of us other ranks for all four units combined. I think most of the larger multi-unit armouries followed that pattern. The social aspects of such messes were an important recruiting feature in days when there were few other socializing options.

The concept was not much different for RegF bases. The 1950s/60s construction created unit lines clustered around a parade square with a headquarters building, a training building, a quartermaster stores a sergeants mess, junior ranks club and a pair of barrack. The officers' mess was usually a little ways away. In the 1970s we started amalgamating messes which was a process heavily resisted by most units.