Dress and Deportment

[Eye In The Sky]

CFLRS is doing a bang-on job!  Just today, I was walking behind a RAdm on base and witnessed a young person in civilians salute him.  I stopped the mbr and we had a short conversation where I learned he'd just arrived in from St-Jean.

BZ CFLRS!  ;D

 

[RocketRichard]

CFLRS is doing a bang-on job!  Just today, I was walking behind a RAdm on base and witnessed a young person in civilians salute him.  I stopped the mbr and we had a short conversation where I learned he'd just arrived in from St-Jean.

BZ CFLRS!  ;D

I did BOTC in St Jean in the late 90’s and we were given a modicum of drill commands as officers and a wee bit of sword drill. This is not part of initial training for reserve officers at least.


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[daftandbarmy]

CFLRS is doing a bang-on job!  Just today, I was walking behind a RAdm on base and witnessed a young person in civilians salute him.  I stopped the mbr and we had a short conversation where I learned he'd just arrived in from St-Jean.

BZ CFLRS!  ;D

Gold, Jerry!  :rofl:

I assume that 'sheer terror' had a role to play.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Gold, Jerry!  :rofl:

I assume that 'sheer terror' had a role to play.

Yup.  He said "I realized he was an Admiral and just reacted". 

The best part...it was actually a crisp, smart salute and while he was going up a narrow, wooden set of stairs while the RAdm was going down them.  I had premium seating as the top of the sets of stairs.

;D

 

[stoker dave]

I don’t know that drill instruction is given to new officers anymore. Sigh...

Unless things have changed, officers coming out of the military college system should be pretty proficient at drill.

For those not coming through the milcol system, I have no idea what drill training they get (or its quality). 

 

[Edward Campbell]

Based on my time at CG back in the day, I would suggest that it is not the soldiers practicing drill that makes them proficient.  It is the SNCOs who can spot and rectify faults, can sense the whole within the individual parts, and who can identify cohesion when it starts to occur.  We don't create those NCOs anymore.  It may be a chicken / egg type of thing, but it all starts with well trained NCOs, as always.

I did my junior NCO course, back almost 60 years ago, when CG meant The Regiment of Canadian Guards, not the Ceremonial Guard, and I agree 100% with PPCLI Guy, if we can get junior leadership right, that being at the corporal and 2Lt level, then everything else will fall into place. If we fail at producing good junior leaders then I cannot imagine how we might imagine that senior leaders will produce themselves out of thin air.

It's not a PPCLI vs RCR thing, nor was it a Cdn Gds vs QOR thing back, more than half a century ago, when they were at the top of the reputational totem pole, it's an Army thing and if we can't get that one, simple thing ~ making the best junior leaders in the world ~ right then we will get our asses handed to us by some half-wits in flip-flops. It's happened before.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I did my junior NCO course, back almost 60 years ago, when CG meant The Regiment of Canadian Guards, not the Ceremonial Guard, and I agree 100% with PPCLI Guy, if we can get junior leadership right, that being at the corporal and 2Lt level, then everything else will fall into place. If we fail at producing good junior leaders then I cannot imagine how we might imagine that senior leaders will produce themselves out of thin air.

It's not a PPCLI vs RCR thing, nor was it a Cdn Gds vs QOR thing back, more than half a century ago, when they were at the top of the reputational totem pole, it's an Army thing and if we can't get that one, simple thing ~ making the best junior leaders in the world ~ right then we will get our asses handed to us by some half-wits in flip-flops. It's happened before.

Thank you for the post, ERC.

Ref the part I've highlighted in yellow text;  does the CAF *actually* expect Cpl's and 2Lts to be leaders in the year 20XX?  I have a sense that, over the past decade or 2, that less is expected of Jnr NCOs and Officers (below the Capt / Lt(N) rank) as "leaders".  Junior NCO tasks and skills are expected of MCpl/MS only and even then, not as much as 10-20 years ago.  We've become comfortable with a large number of Acting/Lacking personnel at the MCpl/MS rank and, as an institution, I fear we've 'watered down' the Jnr NCO rank duties and expectations.

I was on SLC in 2002 in Gagetown.  We had 2, maybe 3 A/L WOs.  There were 2 PLQs running at the same time;  I believe 95% or more of the candidates were A/L MCpl/MS.

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

Maybe I’m reading this out of context, but I disagree with some of the comments made above. IMO and in my experience, I’ve noticed that Jnr NCMs in general tends to do more, but also know more than ever before. They are very capable, smart and resourceful people I’ve ever worked with. They are as much mission driven than previous generations. When I was a Cpl, many of my NCOs were a “product” of the late 80s and 90s, and frankly were the most shittiest NCOs I’ve ever worked for. So as an organization have we traded some skill sets for others? Yes we did! We may not be as good and shiny with drills, however I noticed leaders across the board are more concerned for the well-being of their subordinates than I’ve seen before, and IMO this is for the better.

 

[Pusser]

Maybe I’m reading this out of context, but I disagree with some of the comments made above. IMO and in my experience, I’ve noticed that Jnr NCMs in general tends to do more, but also know more than ever before. They are very capable, smart and resourceful people I’ve ever worked with. They are as much mission driven than previous generations. When I was a Cpl, many of my NCOs were a “product” of the late 80s and 90s, and frankly were the most shittiest NCOs I’ve ever worked for. So as an organization have we traded some skill sets for others? Yes we did! We may not be as good and shiny with drills, however I noticed leaders across the board are more concerned for the well-being of their subordinates than I’ve seen before, and IMO this is for the better.

I will not dispute this for a moment.  Obviously the mission and business of what we do must come first.  However, I've never understood why there seems to be a split between operational capability and dress and deportment and why some folks seem to think they are mutually exclusive. Why can't we do it all!  If we can't get the simple stuff (dress and deportment) right, are we really doing the best we can on the more serious and complicated stuff?

 

[daftandbarmy]

I will not dispute this for a moment.  Obviously the mission and business of what we do must come first.  However, I've never understood why there seems to be a split between operational capability and dress and deportment and why some folks seem to think they are mutually exclusive. Why can't we do it all!  If we can't get the simple stuff (dress and deportment) right, are we really doing the best we can on the more serious and complicated stuff?

We can. It's when we skew everything too far one way that things go wrong. And the soldiers are smart enough to figure that out too, believe me.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I will not dispute this for a moment.  Obviously the mission and business of what we do must come first.  However, I've never understood why there seems to be a split between operational capability and dress and deportment and why some folks seem to think they are mutually exclusive. Why can't we do it all!  If we can't get the simple stuff (dress and deportment) right, are we really doing the best we can on the more serious and complicated stuff?

They are also not mutually inclusive; you can be operational superstars and not have the best dress and deportment. Bad dress and deportment does not equal bad operational capabilities. I know of a few people who are amazing at their job, that still look like a soup sandwich in even the best turned out uniform, and who probably should never be on a ceremonial guard.  Fortunately they prefer to be in and around the machinery spaces of the ship in any case. Similarly know a few people that are so pusser they could be photos used for standards, but wouldn't trust them to do much more than convert oxygen to carbon dioxide and output some heat.

That 'we can't get the simple things right' red herring is a personal pet peeve of mine, as it typically gets trotted out when you are drowning in work and just triaging the critical things, so sometimes you let the simple things intentionally slip because you are doing a bunch of critical and complex things properly, and the simple things won't have an actual operational impact. Nothing builds morale quite like working around the clock for a few days to get a safety critical thing fixed and have someone give you a hassle for your boots being scuffed or having grease on your uniform (at sea).

 

[gcclarke]

I will not dispute this for a moment.  Obviously the mission and business of what we do must come first.  However, I've never understood why there seems to be a split between operational capability and dress and deportment and why some folks seem to think they are mutually exclusive. Why can't we do it all!  If we can't get the simple stuff (dress and deportment) right, are we really doing the best we can on the more serious and complicated stuff?

Personally, and I think for a lot of other people, it's less a matter "if we can't get the simple stuff right", and more so "why bother putting effort into things that don't matter"?

What's the operational impact of having shoddy drill? Zero. How much time in the week would be suitable to spend on fixing shoddy drill? 1 hour? 2? 8? 0? What's the operational impact of allocating that time towards this task? What things are we leaving undone as a result?

No one will ever convince me that should actually give a flying fark about how good someone's drill is. The serious and more complicated stuff  (like "how to fight a war")  is the stuff that we need to be focusing on; it shouldn't be some sort of afterthought that we only bother dealing with once we get the purely ceremonial aspects of the job squared away.

How shiny someone's shoes are or whether or not people can keep in line when executing a right wheel will never be a matter which affects how well we defend Canada from the enemy. So who cares? Not me.

 

[TCM621]

They are also not mutually inclusive; you can be operational superstars and not have the best dress and deportment. Bad dress and deportment does not equal bad operational capabilities. I know of a few people who are amazing at their job, that still look like a soup sandwich in even the best turned out uniform, and who probably should never be on a ceremonial guard.  Fortunately they prefer to be in and around the machinery spaces of the ship in any case. Similarly know a few people that are so pusser they could be photos used for standards, but wouldn't trust them to do much more than convert oxygen to carbon dioxide and output some heat.

That 'we can't get the simple things right' red herring is a personal pet peeve of mine, as it typically gets trotted out when you are drowning in work and just triaging the critical things, so sometimes you let the simple things intentionally slip because you are doing a bunch of critical and complex things properly, and the simple things won't have an actual operational impact. Nothing builds morale quite like working around the clock for a few days to get a safety critical thing fixed and have someone give you a hassle for your boots being scuffed or having grease on your uniform (at sea).

If i tell you that you need to keep your hair cut and boots shone and you don't do it because you think it is stupid, what else aren't you doing because you think it is stupid? It can get stupid, I remember putting creases in my combats, but I think we have gone too far the other way. I literally spend less than 5 minutes a week on my boots, 20 minutes a week on my beard and 30 minutes every 2 to 3 weeks getting a hair cut, if that is too much to ask I am concerned with that person's dedication.

 

[Remius]

I think that when people point to things they dislike or they think is useless they use whatever excuse like "that doesn't help defend Canada" or "That doesn't kill bad guys" or "We have better things to do"

How about "if you do it, do it right".

Who cares what it is.  Drill, polishing, shooting bad guys.  Just do it right.  Then complain all you want about it after.  We don't have to excuse shoddy work at any level. 

 

[Furniture]

If i tell you that you need to keep your hair cut and boots shone and you don't do it because you think it is stupid, what else aren't you doing because you think it is stupid? It can get stupid, I remember putting creases in my combats, but I think we have gone too far the other way. I literally spend less than 5 minutes a week on my boots, 20 minutes a week on my beard and 30 minutes every 2 to 3 weeks getting a hair cut, if that is too much to ask I am concerned with that person's dedication.

Nobody has argued that we don't need/shouldn't enforce dress standards. All places of work have a dress code whether official or not.

The issue is some people think we need more time spent on uniforms and drill, while others think we spend enough time on that stuff already. I'm ok with passable drill, and the occasional bad honour guard when we are pulling the guard together from troops doing their primary jobs. If we want snappy dressers with fancy drill then we should put together units whose primary jobs are drill, and looking good.

 

[Throwaway987]

I am concerned with that person's dedication.

I think the retention crisis is an amusing reflection of where our dedication truly lies. Self before service and reduced tolerance for institutional silliness?

 

[TCM621]

I think the retention crisis is an amusing reflection of where our dedication truly lies. Self before service and reduced tolerance for institutional silliness?

Things like drill, dress and deportment are so far down the list of why people are leaving, it hardly bears mentioning. Things like a steady erosion of benefits, lack of trust in leadership (civilian and military), lack of proper training and equipment, and pay that isn't adequate to live in many places are much bigger problems.

 

[Navy_Pete]

If i tell you that you need to keep your hair cut and boots shone and you don't do it because you think it is stupid, what else aren't you doing because you think it is stupid? It can get stupid, I remember putting creases in my combats, but I think we have gone too far the other way. I literally spend less than 5 minutes a week on my boots, 20 minutes a week on my beard and 30 minutes every 2 to 3 weeks getting a hair cut, if that is too much to ask I am concerned with that person's dedication.

If you want picture perfect, that requires time and a lot of practice. That's not what people generally get before the various parades, but is what they get judged against by the peanut gallery.

It's easy to meet the standard, but we don't typically give people the time to prepare to meet the picture perfect standard before snapping their photos. Especially in the social media era; there are photos snapped all the time where you never would have bothered before (to the point where I personnally find it distracting and a bit distasteful).

Things are constantly documented where they never used to be; IMHO it's less that standards are slipping and more that things are being constantly broadcast. There is practice for some big events, but normally you fall in 20 minutes early, do a quick walkthrough and off you go.  Even if you get some practice, an hour here or there isn't going to knock much rust off, so if you want CG quality, you need it to be a full time job.

 

[Throwaway987]

Things like drill, dress and deportment are so far down the list of why people are leaving, it hardly bears mentioning. Things like a steady erosion of benefits, lack of trust in leadership (civilian and military), lack of proper training and equipment, and pay that isn't adequate to live in many places are much bigger problems.

I think we’re saying the same thing from slightly different sides. The whole ship is sinking and this is the issue we’re fixated on?

We’re undermanned and trying our best to do get our work done. We get forced to do a parade that none of us wanted to do and now there’s a whole thread mocking us. I think of that other thread on work hours and we also have Sgt who’s telling us that he owns our asses 24/7. This paragraph is totally fictitious but is it that far from the truth?

Edit: Don’t get me wrong though. I’m pro-internal motivation and doing things right. My concern is that in a pseudo-Maslow’s hierarchy of needs point of view, dress and deportment comes after meeting more basic needs (such as performing our primary duty with pride).  The internal pride in one’s dress and deportment is a sign that one’s more basic needs have been met and there is leftover time and energy to focus on this higher order need.

I can see why some posters are so irrationally fixated on dress and deportment but it mistakes cause and effect. Dress and deportment is a symptom of healthy troops but the blind pursuit of dress and deportment does not lead to health.

 

[FJAG]

When states want to impress foreign dignitaries with an honour guard there is usually a specific unit that has the role of ceremonial duties. The Brit's Guards, the German Wachbataillon, the French Republican Guard, the US Army Old Guard, the Chinese PLA Honour Guard Battalion, the Russian's Kremlin Regiment, etc etc.

Canada doesn't generally have that although at this time of year the Ceremonial Guard could easily have done the job.

It strikes me that the formation at the Petawawa visit was more in the nature of a quarter guard (although a wee bit large for that) which generally is a little less formal and not so much a ceremonial guard formation and in this case was designed to show the troops in a bit more of the working uniform rather than a full bib and tucker thing.

I think that there are things we can do to make teaching, learning and doing drill and ceremony simpler (when's the last time a left or right form on the march has really been used except when trooping the colour). Very few dignitaries really care whether we march past in column of companies or battalion in mass or column of route.

We do need to look and move on parade like professionals both to look good to others and feel good about ourselves. That takes a bit of practice and supervision of the basics and shouldn't take a Herculean effort. If we do want ramrod precision and creases that we can shave with to impress the locals and foreigners then let's form a ceremonial guard for that purpose. Personally I'd rather buy and staff an air defence battalion.

:cheers: