Election time? - Go now or wait for Gomery?

[jerrythunder]

hello

As a conservitave supporter, i just couldnt pass up the chance of watching  Steven Harper bash the Liberals over many opf their shortcommings. i thought that Harper gave a marvelous speech.

come on guys give me some imput back on how you thought he did!

 

[camochick]

If I don't want to vote conservative, I'm not going to vote conservative. I don't care if they promised me a BMW and a monkey butler, I still wouldnt do it. That is the choice I make. I am not dumb, or brainwashed. I am not going to vote based solely on the gay marriage issue, nor am I going to vote solely on any one issue. I will make my decision when the time comes based on what party I think is going to best serve my country and the people in it. Yes, we need a change in Canada, but I just don't feel that the conservatives are the answer. I've seen the conservatives at work in NB , why do you think I now live in Alberta( I know the government is conservative here, but atleast I can get affordable housing and actually make a living here)

 

[Joe Blow]

And it's all good and fine that the conservatives are saying this stuff now, but what happens when they are elected. We have endured many years of politicians saying one thing and doing another. Who really knows what their policies will be like if elected.

That's not really an argument against voting Conservative, it's an argument about trusting anything that any politician says.  If you are just generally cynical then you're really in a pickle.  Why vote for anyone at all?  After all; 'We have endured many years of politicians saying one thing and doing another. Who really knows what their policies will be like if elected'.

Sure it's possible that any politician could deviate form their word.  However, as voters all we can do is look at what they are telling us now and hold them to account if they deviate from it while in power. (MP recall legislation anyone?)

I've heard this business of "oh.. sure they say that now but..." leveled at the Conservatives before.  I still don't understand it. Why are you singling out the Conservative Party for possible misrepresentation?  Do the same doubts not apply to every party?

I have a dark suspicion that it might amount to something like "their a bunch of evil extremists and as such are more prone to misrepresenting themselves then golden hearted left leaning parties".  Please prove me wrong.

 

[camochick]

I'm not against any one party, I am sure that every party has it's good and bad points. I just don't like the conservatives, I never have and I never will. I don't know if i have to put this in french for people to get or what. It's not because I think they are evil, or because I like the liberals, or because I have been brainwashed. They do not reflect my morals or my values. I don't think they would best represent me. If others want to vote conservative, then go right ahead. That is the great thing about being in a democracy ,we all have the right to chose.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I think what is hard to understand is this,

I just don't like the conservatives, I never have and I never will.

That second part is just stupid for a voting age adult to say....................

 

[George Wallace]

I think what is hard to understand is this,

I just don't like the conservatives, I never have and I never will.

That second part is just stupid for a voting age adult to say....................

I don't know......I pretty well felt that way when Mulroney was killing the PC Party and its' credibility.  Perhaps they are the "Conservatives" she is talking about?  Different animal, I know, but some people tend to have Alzheimer's, remembering the old times, but not what happened recently, when it comes to politics.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I think what is hard to understand is this,

I just don't like the conservatives, I never have and I never will.

That second part is just stupid for a voting age adult to say....................

Agreed, that may be one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a while and ranks up there in absurdity with the old classic: "Don't bother me with the facts, I've already made up my mind...."

Perhaps she's just too "tolerant" and "open-minded" for the rest of us. [gently removes tongue from inside cheek]


M.    :

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

George,
I meant the " and I never will" quote in reference to ANY party,.... it obvious its just the name she hates,[ or the not en vogue to be a Conservative factor] and like I said "pretty stupid for a voting age adult to say".

 

[Joe Blow]

1) The abortion thing has been addressed:

Harper stated at the policy convention that his government will bring forth no abortion legislation

2) The religion and state thing has been addressed:

the separation of church and state was meant to keep one institution our of another institution.  So that foreign and domestic policy would not be decided in Rome ...or by the archbishop of Canterbury ...that kind of thing.  It was not intended to keep religious people from governing or to keep them from doing so according to their conscience.

3) The denying the rights of gay people wishing to marry thing has been addressed:

I'm not sure I understand how marriage is a right.  My understanding of it is as a social convention

with characteristics x, y and z ...not a, b and c.  One of those characteristics is that it is between a man and a woman.

arguing that failing to artificially extend the word 'marriage' to cover other sorts of unions is an impingement of someone's rights ...well it rings a bit hollow

4) The 'what's their real agenda' thing has been addressed:

That's not really an argument against voting Conservative, it's an argument about trusting anything that any politician says.

Why are you singling out the Conservative Party for possible misrepresentation?  Do the same doubts not apply to every party?

However rather than point out flaws in the replies to your objections you come back with:

I would rather bludgeon myself to death with a spoon then vote for them.

and

I just don't like the conservatives, I never have and I never will.

and

I'm not going to vote conservative. I don't care if they promised me a BMW and a monkey butler, I still wouldn't do it.

Although I liked the monkey butler quip I have say that I am beginning to sympathize with professors of the 'brainwash' (...or rather victim of effective rhetoric) theory.  It's because you are not responding to rational replies to your objections.

I think it's fine that you vote with you conscience.  All I'm saying is I don't think we're really having a conversation here.  What's happening is that you have voiced objections, they have been replied to, and rather than reply to them in turn ...you just restate your position.

I'm sure you're a cognizant and reflective voter but I have to ask,[edit] in this particular conversation [end edit]; 'Is it a wonder that the 'brainwash' theory is carrying so much currency?

 

[a_majoor]

I'm not against any one party, I am sure that every party has it's good and bad points. I just don't like the conservatives, I never have and I never will. I don't know if i have to put this in french for people to get or what. It's not because I think they are evil, or because I like the liberals, or because I have been brainwashed. They do not reflect my morals or my values. I don't think they would best represent me. If others want to vote conservative, then go right ahead. That is the great thing about being in a democracy ,we all have the right to chose.

God help us if the LIBERALS reflect our morals or values....

Frankly it is difficult to see how a rational person can respond to these sorts of statements. They are obviously driven by emotion rather than fact (as a read of the Conservative Party convention papers would have shown). If only the Conservative party really went on a drive to sell these policiy proposals to the public and let people see for themselves (as opposed to hearing the Liberal whisper campaign version) then we would hear far less of this sort of statement from anyone.

As for who is promoting these "spun" versions of the Conservative platform, kindly look to the Canadian MSM, which dilligently ignores stories like Adscam, Shawinigate, the Billion Dollar Boondoggle, Mr Dither's private doctor (who also runs a thriving private clinic for those of you who would like to avoid waiting lines) and so on until they become simply impossible to ignore. Even then, the memory hole closes like a trap door, any bets to how fast the Gomery Inquiry would have vanished from the media radar after the report came in (about 1.5 seconds, lots of time for Mr Dithers to have covered his tracks in the begged for "30 days after the report").

Final analysis; if you don't want to vote for a particular party, then be up fron as to what you are looking for and which party actually represents YOUR morals and values. If it turns out to be the Marxist Lenninists, then fine. If you find there is no exact match, then start reading the platforms very closely to see what is promised, then look to the historical record to see if they have delivered in the past.

Analogies are useful: for a taste of Jack Layton's NDP, read up on Bob Rae's Ontario (or look at Jack's Coup attempt on the budget). How many Liberal "Red Book" promises ever came to pass? Mike Harris and Brian Mulroeny actually did the things they said they would do (which turns out to be a negative in politics, cest la vie).

We still live in a notional democracy (even if the Liberal govenment refuses to leave now trhey have been ousted by Parliament), so do the work and make a difference by voting. People who are not service members can make an even bigger bang by working for their chosen party, so get out there people!

 

[Joe Blow]

Shawinigate, the Billion Dollar Boondoggle, Mr Dither's private doctor

a_majoor - Thank-you.  I thought everyone else had forgotten those...

 

[George Wallace]

Well......As I said before:  "Some people tend to have Alzheimer's, remembering the old times, but not what happened recently, when it comes to politics."

 

[a_majoor]

A media analysis from a Canadian blogger:

http://www.stephentaylor.ca/archives/000244.html

May 10, 2005
Media bias?

CBC - House passes motion calling on Liberals to resign - The House passed a motion that opposition parties claim should topple the government � but the Liberals have dismissed it as nothing more than a procedural matter.

Grade: C

Describes what happened. However, gives more credit than necessary to the Liberal position: doesn't convey the controversy of the Liberal position.

CTV - House passes motion asking Liberals to resign - In what could be seen as the beginning of the end for the Paul Martin's minority government, the Liberals lost a vote on a controversial motion in the Commons Tuesday night.

Grade: B+

Describes what happens and gives sense of gravity of the situation. Also describes the 'controversial' motion, but doesn't seek to lay blame.

National Post - As expected, government loses vote - The House of Commons has passed a motion that calls for the government to resign, but Liberals are shrugging it off as procedural. Though the Liberals tried to block the Conservative motion, they are sticking to their view that losing it doesn't mean they've lost confidence of the House.

Grade: A-

Differs from the CBC description and assigns blame to the Liberals for 'shrugging' off the motion. Further blame assigned by the words 'sticking to their view'. Shows controversy of Liberal position. Not a solid A for editorializing by using the words "As expected".

The Globe and Mail - Tories, Bloc overpower Liberals - Opposition MPs managed to force a motion through the House of Commons Tuesday demanding the fragile Liberal minority government step down.

Grade: F

Blames the Tories and Bloc with the word "overpower". Contrast this with the pity generating 'fragile' Liberal government. Also, the description of "force" puts blame squarely on the Conservatives for this mess. Juxtaposition of Bloc and Tories villifies the Conservatives. Other headlines use the word "House" because it was the will of the majority of the House of Commons.

Toronto Star - Liberals lose, ignore resignation vote - The opposition powered through a motion today demanding that the wobbly minority government resign, but the Liberals dismissed it as a dress rehearsal for the real non-confidence vote they promise later this month. The outcome will likely mean more disarray in the House of Commons.

Grade: B-

Headline is straight to the point and assigns blame to the Liberals. Even handed and assigns some blame to the opposition because they "powered through" (does not name opposition by name). Lost points on giving credibility to the Liberals for the "dress rehearsal" position. Accurately describes the current state of the House of Commons.

And before anyone says so: Yes, I am biased in ranking media by their bias. But, I hope that this made for an interesting comparison.

UPDATE: Ben's got a good roundup

UPDATE: Welcome Instapundit, SDA, Outside the Beltway and Google News readers! If you have a blog, and would like to link a Canadian conservative, blogroll me! Then send me an email.
Posted by Stephen Taylor at May 10, 2005 07:46 PM | Comments (18) | Trackback (1)

 

[Reccesoldier]

Camochick. I can sympathise with you. I could never bring myself to vote Liberal.

They are all a bunch of criminals who spend all their time pandering to special interest groups.

They have cornered the market on hypocracy and inaction, they promise the world and deliver only unto their friends.

Personaly, they could offer me a Senators position (like they did to try to buy off Inky Mark) but I wouldn't vote for them if they were indeed the last vestage of democracy (like they claim) left in Canada.

They bend over backwards, while they bend the nation over frontwards to gain more votes. Brown envelopes stuffed with cash, all expense paid trips to liberal friendly corporate hideaways (iI can just imagine what government "policy" was decided in that company's favour), weak on child pornography the list goes on and on.

I don't need to read their policy paper to know that they are unaccountable, untrustworthy, corrupt, mismanagers who only exist to satisfy their own lust for power and the taxpayers money.





Now that I've stated this vaccuous diatribe, do you see the point that is being made?

 

[PuckChaser]

"Brain-washed idiot" is not appropriate simply because someone supports a party other than the CPC.

"Brain-washed idiot" is, however, appropriate for someone who believes in myths about the CPC.

I grew up in the '70s and '80s.  My parents grew up in the '50s and '60s.  My grandparents etc.  I have a pretty good idea how "bad" things were in the "old days".  Tell me, to what decade do you imagine the CPC is going to roll us back?  Are we one CPC majority away from realizing a shift in time and space to Dickensian England or the segregated southern US?  Get real.

I am not sure what opinion I should form of someone who believes that marriage is the defining and pressing federal policy issue of our time.  I expect a rational and intelligent human being to behave like one and accord to matters of the federal state the import they warrant - assuming they are matters of the federal state in the first place.

You have a vary alarmist view of the CPC, its almost scary. I certainly don't appreciate the brain-washed idiot comment, as would anyone else, no matter what party they support. So maybe if we stuck to debating the issues at hand, like most have done, an intelligent and informative topic will come of this.

Which Conservative party do you speak of, when you believe they'll roll us back to the 50s? The governments that lead during those times had very different issues, and very different views on things such as segregation, women's rights, and marrage. This is a different decade, century, and millenium. None of those things apply. Do you honestly think that a party could get elected now with a platform of re-introducing segregation, decreasing women's rights, or putting more religion into the running of the State? You forget that we in Canada are a democracy, and such bills have to be voted into law via Parliament. I know we've been stuck with the Liberals pushing any little bill they feel like (Gay marrage? That's been fast-tracked beyond belief), but this next government WILL NOT be a majority. Canada needs a few years of minority governments, which are not lead by the Liberals. They have become to complaincent with the positions they hold, and do not want to let go. A minority government is where the real will of the people is shown, as MPs now have to pay attention to constituants instead of towing a party line.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

I am set in my voting ways but I would like to hear from those on this site that are anti-conservative as to exactly what is so scary about the conservative party.Honestly all I have ever heard were the unsubstantiated fear mongering by liberals but exactly why are people believing the whispers from the same polititions that have stolen from Canadians or filled their heads with empty promises for years.

 I would like a direct conservative platform quote that should make me think twice about voting conservative........anyone,anyone, bueller???

 

[JBP]

I don't think any of the major parties are responsible or honest enough to be our leaders. They've all dipped thier hand in the collective ass of the Canadian people and pulled our intestines out. We've been raped repeatedly by the Liberals, Conservatives (slightly before my time, I was young but I remember) and NDP; not that they've been able to gain much power in the last couple decades to have an incredible influence, but nontheless. I don't know much about the Bloc Quebecois really, EDITED: Correction, I know the party is a seperatist movement, but I am not current on all thier policies. Except that at one point they were basically trying to tear Canada apart. (Not sure if thier still doing that...)

Stephen Harper is basically the Canadian version of G.W. Bush, which, we could actually possibly use to bring Canada back onto the world stage. Mr.Dithers is just that, (Crap, will the Canadians love me if I do THIS? Ohh, but that's quite devastating to our relationship with the US and really harmful for the country... O well, we'll do it anyway! They voted me in to do what they want, not to be responsible or anything!!!)

Just my $0.02, yes, needs some modifying and I'm still educating myself about the individual parties to try and come to a decision before sh*t hits the fan. But there it is, in a nutshell, I am NOT satisfied with any of the major political parties or leaders in Canada at the moment, and haven't been appeased in the last couple years really.

PS> Okay, whoever wants to flame me or rip my post apart and try to convert me, just PM me unless you have constructive critisizm, for that, I'm all ears. Food for thought.



[EDITED FOR CONTENT: THIS IS THE SECOND TIME I'VE HAD TO DO THIS HERE.  IF YOU KIDS WANT TO TALK POLITICS, ACT LIKE BIG BOYS AND BE AWARE THAT YOU ARE SOLDIERS REPRESENTING CANADA AND SERVING UNDER THE QUEENS REGULATIONS AND ORDERS.  READ SECTION 103.15:

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol2/ch103_e.asp#103.15

LAST WARNING - INFANTEER]

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

Stephen Harper is basically the Canadian version of G.W. Bush





Can you explain to me what the similarities are??

 

[Joe Blow]

Stephen Harper is basically the Canadian version of G.W. Bush

That's the kind of thing that really needs a supporting argument.

 

[a_majoor]

Stephen Harper is basically the Canadian version of G.W. Bush

Now that the Martin government has fallen but pretends otherwise (aka ignoring the vote of non confidence in the house), who would like to compare Mr Martin to? Fransisco Franco? Joseph Stalin? (no, wait, Stalin was decicive), Juan Peron? Adolph Hitler?

Face it, Mr Martin gave up his Prime Ministerial position the second he acceded to Jack Layton's blackmail (pass my budget or you loose the next vote in the house), and ignoring a recorded Parliamentry vote on spurious grounds simply puts Martin farther into the rougues gallery of petty and not so petty dictators. Whoever wins the next election should spend a lt of time examining how this governmental system is put together and propose some drastic changes to prevent a similar constitutional crisis from happening again.

The only bright spot in the entire affair: They can't call out the Army to keep them in power like some crazed Junta, because they have destroyed it! The irony of it all keeps me laughing all day......