Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

[Eye In The Sky]

Another small but possibly important point is, IIRC, this is not a "Canadian Army" fitness test, but a Canadian Forces fitness test, so includes the RCN and RCAF folks as well.  It applies to Inf Recce platoon folks the same way as it applies to the 4'8" 90lb RMS Clerk posted to a Wing for the last 3 years.  There is no way it will be perfect and make everyone happy.  I would bet there are some who will fear the new test once they find out what is in it, as they likely scrape by the EXPRES test min's now. 

Because of this, of course, some will argue the test "pass level" is too low and some will argue it is too high, doesn't simulate anything in their day to day duties, etc etc etc...just like happens now with EXPRES.  Much to the dislike of most CA folks, it is a fitness test/evaluation vice a bonafide battle fitness test. 

So, I will point the blame on this problem to a thing called "Unification".  >

 

[George Wallace]

And such is the facts of life with military fitness regimes.  At one time this was the cutting edge in physical fitness programs, highly respected around the world:
5BX (for men)
10BX (for women)

Fitness programs, like technology, are constantly being changed, adapted, improved, etc. evolving constantly.  Someone always has a "better way", but as Eye In The Sky says, nothing will suit "everyone".  There will always be someone who will require a Hurt Feelings Report.  >

 

[buzgo]

This is what always happens when we introduce change - with fitness, everyone is an expert and everyone has biases: PSP sucks, units need to run their own testing, the Cooper's test is the best because DHTC uses it.

Well,

PSP - PSP doesn't work in a vacuum and make their own decisions. They are part of CMP and are directed to pursue these projects. Project FORCE was agreed to by all of the L1s over a year ago, and it will be THE standard for the CF. PSP itself is full of highly educated, motivated and skilled people. PSP R&D is full of PhDs working on this stuff - they are not making it up, it is based on scientific research. Incidentally, I understand that with Project FORCE, the CF is way out in front of the world's miltaries in the realm of BFOR based fitness testing. This is cutting edge. Don't knock PSP because you may have had a bad experience at the base gym.

Unit testing - I have seen cheating with my own eyes during BFT. Soldiers get out of the cas evac or the trench dig because their buddies look the other way. PSP is a 3rd party with not horse in the race so to speak, they don't care if you pass or fail - they just want the test to be done. If there is a way to guarantee that units will conduct the testing honestly and ethically, then no problem but... how do you enforce this?

Cooper's Test - Yes DHTC uses the Cooper's test for some fitness testing. The don't use it for a maintenance standard for the assaulters though. The Cooper's test is a good measure of overall fitness, measuring strength and muscular endurance and cardiovascular fitness. Its a gut check and using it as a 'gatekeeper' test is a good idea. Its not the be-all and end-all though. Look at the SAR techs - the SAR selection test is different from the SAR maintenance standard... the maint standard is a BFOR test. So, feel free to use the Cooper's test to gauge the fitness of your troops - COs can order the troops to do whatever fitness testing they feel like but in the end its the CF standard that counts.

In my opinion, the impact of this new testing will be positive. Failures are going to happen and CF members are going to have to get their heads out and get fit. Hopeully units will get away from the 'lets go for a run' mentatility and will focus on FUNCTIONAL fitness. As RoyalDrew stated, getting people to muscle up would have a huge impact on fitness and health issues. Introducing things like more body awareness, functional movement assesment and improved nutritional coaching could add tremendous follow on effects to the changes from testing.

 

[Jarnhamar]

To play devil's advocate for a moment (and I will admit my bias since my wife is PSP), the benefit that PSP bring is that they are outside the CoC. Going to unit-level testers brings about the possibility of rank-, peer- and "buddy"-pressure applied to the testers. I personally hear stories of some members trying to pull rank on PSP to add a point to their handgrip score in order to obtain a pass

On the same note I've seen civilian PSP staff jack up soldiers for not trying hard enough- including approaching a soldiers platoon WO to tell him so and so wasn't trying hard enough. 
The soldier was doing rucksack PT circuit training with 50+lbs in the bag and the PSP staff was hoping in and out of exercises with a rucksack that was ridiculously lighter (and got offended when someone checked).

I've personally came across two very different standards of pull ups (which meant a pass and fail) from PSP staff who work in the same group.




I can't articulate why very well but the feeling I get from what I've read of this new test is that it will lower the overall standard that soldiers must achieve to be soldiers. It just doesn't seem that difficult at first glance.  I hope I'm wrong, if smarter-than-me people say it's good to go then that's that.    Maybe I'm just being negative because I figure  I'll probably get stuck filling all the sandbags  ;D

 

[jwtg]

At the risk of ruffling a few feathers, I'll go ahead and say that my favorite part of this is the uniformity of the standard.

We expect everything to be done based on fairness, with no eye to age or gender, so fitness tests should be no different. 

 

[WestCoaster]

On the same note I've seen civilian PSP staff jack up soldiers for not trying hard enough- including approaching a soldiers platoon WO to tell him so and so wasn't trying hard enough. 
The soldier was doing rucksack PT circuit training with 50+lbs in the bag and the PSP staff was hoping in and out of exercises with a rucksack that was ridiculously lighter (and got offended when someone checked).

I've personally came across two very different standards of pull ups (which meant a pass and fail) from PSP staff who work in the same group.

Very true. I definitely don't paint all PSP instructors with the same brush. I have seen my share of poor ones as well. As for the different standards, this is more of an organizational issue than personnel. At a few bases, the instructors will actually talk about standards, and hold training sessions to try to get their standards to match. It doesn't always work, but helps to even things out a bit. It's something that CF instructors in general should do more often as well (just my  :2c: after a school posting).
I do hope that this new testing does away with the judgment issues that the EXPRES test had. It appears that it does with cut-and-dry timings. I always felt that EXPRES was pretty simple and way too easy (and that's coming from a Navy guy!). We need something to be the minimum threshold, and whatever test it is, there will always be those that grumble about it, either that it is too easy or too hard.

 

[jollyjacktar]

The researchers looked across their data (which was based on a sample of 666 CF members, with a mix of environments, ages and occupations) and identified a set of tests that have good correlations to the common military tasks.

Ah ha!  I thought this test had a bit of the Devil's doing in it somewhere... 

 

[Duckman54]

Wow...  lotsa good input here.

I'm an applicant, not an active member, but I do kinda know what I'm speaking about as a registered Kinesiologist with 15+ yrs experience.  (not 22, no yoga pants! lol)

Bottom line, from what I've read in this whole post, is there's WAY too much fussin' going on here about WHAT exactly will be tested, and HOW, and by WHOM, and WHERE this applies in daily military life, and what research it's based on...  Or what kinda 'Shovelling Simulator' we need to build to practice, etc... 

Just plain SILLY!

Don't worry, don't stress, who cares anyway?  If you wanna succeed, TRAIN!  Go running, work on strength, work on stamina, work on flexibilty...  and the rest will just kinda magically come around on it's own, REGARDLESS of the specific test in use that day, at that (field?) location, that year.  U think they really care how fast you can build a sandbag bunker, and not fast enough you're kicked out? Highly doubt it.  But they most certainly DO expect a minimum fitness level to be acheived (and hopefully maintained!) by all members of the Forces.

I'm gonna out on a limb here and guess that IF you can run 2.4km in 12mins or better, and IF you can do 40 pushups straight (or whatever #), and X situps, and X chinups, etc, etc... then you'll be just fine at whatever task they throw at you. They (people) and they (tests) just ensure you have a minimum of endurance, upper body strength, etc, in order to get by when called upon. Not rocket science.

People tend to analyze things to death, and these 5 pages certainly qualify at that! Some of you Gen-X-er's may recognize the term 'Cross-Training'. Get off the couch, go do something active...  younger, older, guys and gals...  you'll do fine.

'Greg.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Wow...  lotsa good input here.

I'm an applicant, not an active member, but I do kinda know what I'm speaking about as a registered Kinesiologist with 15+ yrs experience.  (not 22, no yoga pants! lol)

Bottom line, from what I've read in this whole post, is there's WAY too much fussin' going on here about WHAT exactly will be tested, and HOW, and by WHOM, and WHERE this applies in daily military life, and what research it's based on...  Or what kinda 'Shovelling Simulator' we need to build to practice, etc... 

Just plain SILLY!

Don't worry, don't stress, who cares anyway?  If you wanna succeed, TRAIN!  Go running, work on strength, work on stamina, work on flexibilty...  and the rest will just kinda magically come around on it's own, REGARDLESS of the specific test in use that day, at that (field?) location, that year.  U think they really care how fast you can build a sandbag bunker, and not fast enough you're kicked out? Highly doubt it.  But they most certainly DO expect a minimum fitness level to be acheived (and hopefully maintained!) by all members of the Forces.

I'm gonna out on a limb here and guess that IF you can run 2.4km in 12mins or better, and IF you can do 40 pushups straight (or whatever #), and X situps, and X chinups, etc, etc... then you'll be just fine at whatever task they throw at you. They (people) and they (tests) just ensure you have a minimum of endurance, upper body strength, etc, in order to get by when called upon. Not rocket science.

People tend to analyze things to death, and these 5 pages certainly qualify at that! Some of you Gen-X-er's may recognize the term 'Cross-Training'. Get off the couch, go do something active...  younger, older, guys and gals...  you'll do fine.

'Greg.

Have you got any idea how many empires you've just toppled? Good heavens man, get a grip on yourself.  ;D

 

[Jarnhamar]

Wow...  lotsa good input here.

I'm an applicant, not an active member, but I do kinda know what I'm speaking about as a registered Kinesiologist with 15+ yrs experience.  (not 22, no yoga pants! lol)

Bottom line, from what I've read in this whole post, is there's WAY too much fussin' going on here about WHAT exactly will be tested, and HOW, and by WHOM, and WHERE this applies in daily military life, and what research it's based on...  Or what kinda 'Shovelling Simulator' we need to build to practice, etc... 

Just plain SILLY!

Don't worry, don't stress, who cares anyway?  If you wanna succeed, TRAIN!  Go running, work on strength, work on stamina, work on flexibilty...  and the rest will just kinda magically come around on it's own, REGARDLESS of the specific test in use that day, at that (field?) location, that year.  U think they really care how fast you can build a sandbag bunker, and not fast enough you're kicked out? Highly doubt it.  But they most certainly DO expect a minimum fitness level to be acheived (and hopefully maintained!) by all members of the Forces.

I'm gonna out on a limb here and guess that IF you can run 2.4km in 12mins or better, and IF you can do 40 pushups straight (or whatever #), and X situps, and X chinups, etc, etc... then you'll be just fine at whatever task they throw at you. They (people) and they (tests) just ensure you have a minimum of endurance, upper body strength, etc, in order to get by when called upon. Not rocket science.

People tend to analyze things to death, and these 5 pages certainly qualify at that! Some of you Gen-X-er's may recognize the term 'Cross-Training'. Get off the couch, go do something active...  younger, older, guys and gals...  you'll do fine.

'Greg.

Hi Greg.

Serious questions.

Did this thread come across to you as people complaining that this test would be too hard and we feared we wouldn't be able to make it?

Are you suggesting that HOW this test is administered (A test which may very well reflect someones promotion, OR whether they are released from the military) isn't important?

Are you suggesting WHO administers this test likewise isn't important?  So in essence whether someone is being evaluated by a Kinesiologist with 15 years experience or someone with 2 days of "fitness training" isn't really important?

Do you think in the military the amount of time it takes "someone to build a sandbag bunker" is not really as important as just getting out and doing it?

 

[Haggis]

Project FORCE was to have been briefed to Armed Forces Council today.  This should set this thread on a whole new tangent in a day or so.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Not to start a derail, but what happened to the environment-specific requirements?  IIRC, there was a CANAIRGEN out in 09 or so about the AF developing a test for AF or Air Ops types.  That was dropped?

 

[PMedMoe]

Not to start a derail, but what happened to the environment-specific requirements?  IIRC, there was a CANAIRGEN out in 09 or so about the AF developing a test for AF or Air Ops types.  That was dropped?

Probably, because apparently, since Afghanistan, only the Army is important. 

 

[Haggis]

Not to start a derail, but what happened to the environment-specific requirements?  IIRC, there was a CANAIRGEN out in 09 or so about the AF developing a test for AF or Air Ops types.  That was dropped?

Once the research began and the results started to show the linkage to the common tasks, the RCAF bought into the FORCE test as being applicable to them. I have heard that the RCAF have decided to retain the services of PSP for the FORCE test.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Probably, because apparently, since Afghanistan, only the Army is important. 

And just how did the Army get to Afghanistan? 

 

[Zoomie]

BFT completion = 2 points on PER board
Pass EXPress = 1 point
Exempt EXpress = 2 points
FORCE pass = ??

 

[PMedMoe]

Probably, because apparently, since Afghanistan, only the Army is important.  <-----------

And just how did the Army get to Afghanistan?

:

 

[dapaterson]

BFT completion = 2 points on PER board
Pass EXPress = 1 point
Exempt EXpress = 2 points
FORCE pass = ??

My understanding is that the new rules will see zero points for physical fitness on PERs.

But no valid fitness test in the year will mean your file will not be seen by the merit boards.

 

[Duckman54]

No, Obedientwhateverguy...  NOT claiming this test isn't important whatsoever. Fitness *IS* important, especially in this line of work, and related ones (Fire-Rescue, SAR, Law Enforcement, etc).

Just that all the back-n-forth, especially earlier in the thread, about the specifics of what will/should be tested, and how to train for it, came across to me as trivial. 

Kinda reminded me of an old Sesame Street skit...  "Gee Burt, I don't know how to count blocks, I only know how to count oranges!"
Ya know?  Getting hung up on details, not really seeing the end goal.

What I was saying is that people shouldn't get so hung up on the minute details of the test, or what apparatus one should train on...  just do something physical. I've got enough experience to confidently profess your body don't know if it's lifting sandbags or barbells...  Just go lift something repeatedly and upper body strength will increase..... No?  Same with running. Just go.  Don't worry if next year's test is 2.4 km, or 10 km, or a 13 km march with a ruck...  just do some kinda aerobic exercise regularly, and stamina WILL improve. If you can't get your heart rate up to about double it's resting rate, and keep it there for at least 20 mins few times per week, my sincere condolences to your wife/partner. Better stop on way home and get Costco pack of batteries for her.

Bottom line is, we don't need to train the precise test, just need to train. Don't fret the details...

THAT was my point that was apparently missed. NEVER meant to belittle consequences of pass/fail on one's career.

 

[dapaterson]

And just how did the Army get to Afghanistan?