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Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

I don't get why they're obsessed with BP and resting heart rate for PT tests, people do the BFT without that check all the time. Isn't it only because the 20m shuttle run combined with HR/BP produces the VO2max number that they want for testing on EXPRES?
 
dapaterson said:
Sailors never lift loads?  They never run?  They're never called to evacuate a casualty?


I guess, to make it appropriately maritime, we could include sliders after you finish the test as part of the standard...

I guess, you've not and never have served on a ship.  There is a test that I've done that is closer to what kind of tasks you would have as a sailor.  The FF fitness test has tasks which are directly related to what you would do in damage control situations and casualty evacuation.  Like using charged and uncharged fire hoses, climbing ladders, dragging Rescue Randy, wielding a sledge hammer etc etc all wearing BA while completing these tasks.

I'm sorry, but the FORCE test doesn't cut it by comparison if you want to equate real life tasks with real life requirements for a sailor.  And yes, I have field time behind me including two trips to the sandbox as well so I can compare the two environments.
 
FORCE is a predictor of a person's fitness and ability to complete the common tasks assigned, just like EXPRES was. The FF test is very task specific, but doesn't have to show a fitness level for about however many occupations the CF has, just that you're GTG to be a firefighter. It also looks to take about half the time, as I just an EXPRES yesterday and it took over an hour and a half to do 20 pers. That's an insane waste of time.

Here's the CDS and the MND completing the new test: http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Politics/ID/2340185134/
 
Really?  You've done the FF PT test and so have an informed opinion on how physically demanding or not it is? 

You took me to task on my opinion of how close FORCE comes to equate real world tasks shipborne personnel face.  I gave you my response and stand by my comment and belief, based upon years of experience in a sea going trade that FORCE pales by comparison, period.  Oh yes, the FF PT test also doesn't give a damn what age, sex you are either.
 
jollyjacktar said:
Really?  You've done the FF PT test and so have an informed opinion on how physically demanding or not it is? 

You took me to task on my opinion of how close FORCE comes to equate real world tasks shipborne personnel face.  I gave you my response and stand by my comment and belief, based upon years of experience in a sea going trade that FORCE pales by comparison, period.  Oh yes, the FF PT test also doesn't give a damn what age, sex you are either.

The FF test is good - but it's specific to firefighting.  FORCE is a generic, CF common test, based on the common tasks that all CF members must be able to perform.  It determines whether an individual meets the universality of service requirements.  Don't read too much into it - it's not a test to see if you're a gung ho fitness ninja; it's a test to predict whether you can successfully complete the core military tasks every CF member, regardless of DEU, rank, age, occupation or gender, must be able to perform.

 
I'm sure it's a great vanilla test.  I gather you've also not served on ship.

I was taken to task on my scarasm on it's relevance to my work environment.  I would prefer tests that prepare sailors to be sailors just as I'm sure soldiers want for soldiers.  If you're fit enough to complete the FFT test, you're more than fit enough to satisfy NDHQ on universality.  And you'll be fit enough to be able to respond to an emergency on ship or ashore.
 
dapaterson said:
The FF test is good - but it's specific to firefighting.  FORCE is a generic, CF common test, based on the common tasks that all CF members must be able to perform.  It determines whether an individual meets the universality of service requirements.  Don't read too much into it - it's not a test to see if you're a gung ho fitness ninja; it's a test to predict whether you can successfully complete the core military tasks every CF member, regardless of DEU, rank, age, occupation or gender, must be able to perform.

Thanks for clarifying for me, that's the point I was trying to make. I try to watch the Firefit stuff on TV because its one hell of a fitness challenge, I wouldn't think of knocking those that can complete it.

Do we need to have 1700 PT tests for each specific environment/occupation? Does my ACISS-Core test involve deadlifting 200-cupper coffee pots and sprinting through mod tent complexes with them? Its not realistic to demand a PT test for each Tom, Dick and Harry. We have specialized test (like FFT) for specialized occupations that require certain fitness levels for certain tasks. What about FORCE doesn't give you enough ammo to put a check-in-the-box that OS Bloggins is physically fit for ship duty? If that OS has other tasks (damage control, flight deck ops, etc) then isn't it up to the chain of command to have a test specifically for those tasks? The CF has declared him/her physically fit, its the RCN's job to decide if s/he is fit sea duty. If they want to reinvent the wheel and make them do another PT test, go for it.
 
jollyjacktar said:
If you're fit enough to complete the FFT test, you're more than fit enough to satisfy NDHQ on universality. 

No, you're not.

There are clearly defined tasks that are required to meet universality.  The FF test has not been validated as a predictor for success on those tasks.  The FORCE tasks have been.

If the FF test is ever validated as a predictor for success on the Common Military Tasks then yes, it can be used to meet the U of S requirements.  Until then, you've got to complete the FORCE tasks.
 
Strike said:
Easy answer - buy digital BP monitors.

Oh, I agree, and as indicated, am confident that any old fellow could be instructed in how to read the numbers for heart rate and BP.  But, I like to think that there is a reason that we are not doing that now, and further infer that whatever that reason is, it will persist going forward.  The PSP fella I spoke with was very keen to put me in my place when I suggested this could be learned in an hour on PLQ.  Of course, he likely had an interest and therefore a bias, but I still am fairly certain I've never seen anyone haul out the BP monitor before a fitness test, although I have always been required to have my BP and heart rate recorded by a "professional."

Just curious.  I don't know enough about why it is done to speak intelligently as to how it could be done differently, but the logical bit in my brain wants ever so desperately to believe that it is done the way it is for a reason, notwithstanding that we all know these machines are widely available.  (The logical part of my brain has been known to get me in trouble from time to time.)
 
dapaterson said:
No, you're not.

There are clearly defined tasks that are required to meet universality.  The FF test has not been validated as a predictor for success on those tasks.  The FORCE tasks have been.

If the FF test is ever validated as a predictor for success on the Common Military Tasks then yes, it can be used to meet the U of S requirements.  Until then, you've got to complete the FORCE tasks.
Sorry, I'll clarify.  You'll be "fit" enough to easily pass the NDHQ proscribed universality of service fitness tests.

PC, all members of a ship's company are trained as shipboard firefighters as well as in Damage Control and could be expected to use this training at sea and in port.  Unless you're filling one of two HeloCrashFF billets, as two of my sailors are, you're not tested yearly on your FF fitness as they are.  Even I'm not as that's not a role I could fill at my rank level anymore.

My trade speciality is damage control etc and as a member of the engineering department it's my job at sea along with the other  section base  teams members.  However in port all trades stand duty watches and are expected to be able to conduct shipboard FF.
 
Cadwr said:
From what I have seen with my own eyes, a wide variety of very senior members (who are age appropriate for such lofty ranks) of both sexes and all sorts of levels of fitness were able to easily complete all components of this test, with very few of them breaking a sweat.  The only high pressure task seemed to be the "pepper-potting."  Upon completion, the general consensus was in accord with what you are hearing.

This was my observance - your mileage may vary.

Maybe they are fitter than they looked? 
 
All sorts of levels of fitness was my take, from the very fit to the not quite very fit.
 
I was one of those who did the test this morning at Cartier Square.  Was it easy, yes.  Was it more challenging than the Expres, yes.  Was it harder than a BFT, hell yes.  This is an assessment to determine if a member can meet universality of service.  That is why there is a single standard for each exercise, that you cannot exceed, that is defensible under human rights legislation.  If someone is in good shape they will find this test easy, but that is true of any test that has an absolute standard, and an open ended one.

The test provides an assessment that is around 70% accurate when predicting if a member will meet universality of service.  Now before howls go up saying that 70% isn't good enough, we've been using a test that was around 50% effective for last 30 years, and the army in particular has been using a test that provides no comprehensive relationship to common military tasks.  With that in mind we have done pretty well in a pretty rough war.

To address some points posted in the last day regarding this-

-Applicability to Navy, Army, Air Force:
All the exercises are directly correlated to those tasks that are assessed to meet universality of service.  In other word, all elements have agreed that these tasks may be required of any military member, regardless of uniform colour.  The main complainer seems to be the Navy who don't think they have to run and negotiate obstacles.  Regardless of your own personal experience being on board ship, your admirals have said this is something a sailor has to be able to do.
The fact that it uses a pepper potting like motion to assess this is simply because it is only an assessment, a predictor, of actual task.  I know when I have pepper potted I have not lifted both hands off the ground to make sure I was unsupported, but I did it for this test, as it part of the protocol.  This does not make it an army centric test, rather it is a test of speed and agility.

-Overall test exercises:
As stated above the four exercises serve to act as a predictor of if a member can pass the universality of service tests.  The universality of service tests are individual tasks, they are not assessed back to back.  Therefore single exercises were developed that could encompass several UoS tasks.  If you can pass one of the exercises, that serves to act as predictor for several tasks basically.

-Administration of the test:
Future PLQ graduates will be able to administer the test.  If a particular environment decides to keep using PSP to administer the test that is a military decision.  The test is designed to be flexible.  For example the weight on the sandbag drag is varied depending on the floor surface.  This ensure a level assessment criteria.  If a particular environment decides to self-administer I just hope that they have some form of maintain testing standards.

For GnyHwy, you can throw yourself down however you want and get up any way you want.  The only requirement is that your foot touches the 10m marks and that your shoulders are behind it when you are down.  I saw some people touching the line and then stepping back.  I just touched the line and threw myself down and back when I dropped.  Just remember this is not a test of pepper potting, it is a test to see if you are fast and agile enough to meet universality of service.

Finally, the test was fun.  It is kinetic, can be competitive, provides opportunity to encourage each other, makes you break a sweat, and if you pay attention to the science behind it relevant.  For these reasons alone it is head and shoulders above other tests.

 
Halifax Tar said:
I don't agree with PSP administering this test.  Not in the slightlest.  For example, yesterday, when I did my latest BFT, it was administered by PSP.  One of the MCpls stopped to preform first aid on one of her troop's that had fallen on ice and broken a bone.  She stayed with the troop for 15-20mins and came in 6 minutes over the 2hrs 26mins and 20sec allotted time limit.  PSP instantly failed this individual.  She was smart.  She went on to complete the drag and the march failure was brought to her CoC's attention who inturn took matters into their own hands and are now ensuring this member gets a passing mark. 

Another reason I don't think they should be able to administer this test is that they have never had to complete it and will never be asked/demanded to complete it.

The fitness instructors  do the BFT on their training course... They administer it because they are supposed to be unbiased.
 
Feel free to pounce on me as I suggest that different trades are held to different fitness standards. As I see it's fine for a clerk to be unfit. But the current tests seem to be kind of weak for the combat arms let alone an infantryman.
 
No thread on the new PT test?  Okay, I guess I volunteered myself.

As of April 1st, 2013 a new PT test will be phased in to replace the CF EXPRES test.

Details here.  https://www.cfpsa.com/en/AboutUs/PSP/DFIT/Fitness/FORCEprogram/Pages/About-the-FORCE-Program.aspx
 
fhg1893 said:
No thread on the new PT test?  Okay, I guess I volunteered myself.

As of April 1st, 2013 a new PT test will be phased in to replace the CF EXPRES test.

Details here.  https://www.cfpsa.com/en/AboutUs/PSP/DFIT/Fitness/FORCEprogram/Pages/About-the-FORCE-Program.aspx

You're about 8 months late here....
 
UnwiseCritic said:
Feel free to pounce on me as I suggest that different trades are held to different fitness standards. As I see it's fine for a clerk to be unfit. But the current tests seem to be kind of weak for the combat arms let alone an infantryman.

Holy crap, do people not read.  This is a test for military universality of service.

If you think your trade is special enough to do a specific PT test go ahead prove that you are special, lots have, for example, SOF, Fire fighters, divers, SAR, etc.  If you cant prove you are need a specific PT test you are not special.  At least in a PT way.

And no it is not fine for a clerk to be unfit.  They may be doing top cover on convoy from a B vehicle and have to haul ammo boxes from the cab up to keep feeding their gun, or hauling your bleeding ass out of a trashed vehicle.
 
PuckChaser said:
You're about 8 months late here....

Yes, I noticed.  Sorry about that.  I did try a few searches but wading through the thousands of results that happen with a string of "FORCE" is a fool's errand.  And "New PT Test," and the like come up with nothing.
 
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