Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

[armyvern]

fully agree with you on the french thing except that you also need to include those folks (anglos) who do their year long in Esquimalt and refuse a posting to la belle province!

Hard to get posted to Quebec as an anglo with a profile when they have very rare vacancies they won't fill with an anglo because they need to save their slots for 5 Bgde mafia rotations from Montreal to St-Jean to Valcatraz circle circle circle.

Been there and done that as an anglo with a profile married to a franco who was in Quebec while I was IR in other provinces because they needed to keep their slots for so & so  or so & so who would get out if they posted him outside of la belle province.

Ms. Marois will also need to sort out her merde to really deal with the issue of anglo-mother tongue soldiers risking their child's education if posted to QC only to find out their kids can't be schooled easily or possibly even locally in english anymore.  Not an issue that franco soldiers posted outside of QC need to deal with.

 

[caocao]

Best time for the whole family to learn french!  My wife (girlfriend at the time)  didn't the last time i got posted to Valcartier and she had to learn in a hurry because i was out the door to Haiti 6 weeks after my COS.  Not easy but it can be done.

 

[OldSolduer]

I agree - provided that the 3 times or you're out rule is enforced for all.

Remedial measures exist. We do not hesitate to use them for ARIs and various other personell problems.

 

[JorgSlice]

Remedial measures exist. We do not hesitate to use them for ARIs and various other personell problems.

As embarrasing as it may be I was one of those in my first bought with RegF BMQ. Then injury happened and I released, only to go back to reserves so that was at I knew they would not let me in unless I was capable. Fast forward nearly 2yrs and here I am.

 

[caocao]

My boss is a 95 lbs female and i think that she may have a hard time with the sand bag drag.  The fireman's carry was done using someone of your own size so why not do the same for that part of the test?  Proportional to one's weight.

Update on my boss, she did the FORCE test this morning but failed the sand bag drag.  She told be that she had like 5 metre to go but the bag you carry in your arm was getting low and she dropped it.  With a little more training i think she'll be able to pass it.  Which leads me to my next point.  An email came out in the NCR yesterday looking for females (all rank shape and size) to form a WG to "further investigate the vehicle extrication task".  So i am trying to convince her to participate because if only Zena type female show up it won't provide reliable data. 

 

[Pusser]

I gather then that if you drop the sand bag, you're not allowed to pick it up again?  Hmmm.  Does this mean that if you're in a real combat situation and you lose your grip on a casualty, you're just supposed to stop and leave the guy there?  I thought this test was supposed to simulate reality.  This sounds like a repeat of the problem with push-ups on the ExPres Test where if you shifted your hand, you had to stop at that point (one of my subordinates who was until that point headed to an "Exempt" ended up failing the test over that one).

 

[armyvern]

I gather then that if you drop the sand bag, you're not allowed to pick it up again?  Hmmm.  Does this mean that if you're in a real combat situation and you lose your grip on a casualty, you're just supposed to stop and leave the guy there?  I thought this test was supposed to simulate reality.  This sounds like a repeat of the problem with push-ups on the ExPres Test where if you shifted your hand, you had to stop at that point (one of my subordinates who was until that point headed to an "Exempt" ended up failing the test over that one).

I guess they feel it's as close a simulation as they can get without all the adrenalin pumping (a great assistant!) that would be going on in a real-world situation.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I gather then that if you drop the sand bag, you're not allowed to pick it up again?  Hmmm.  Does this mean that if you're in a real combat situation and you lose your grip on a casualty, you're just supposed to stop and leave the guy there?  I thought this test was supposed to simulate reality.  This sounds like a repeat of the problem with push-ups on the ExPres Test where if you shifted your hand, you had to stop at that point (one of my subordinates who was until that point headed to an "Exempt" ended up failing the test over that one).

You cannot stop when you are executing the sand-bag dummy drag. The tests are based on real-world activities but they are not simulations. Drag the sand-bad dummy for twenty metres and you are good to go. Its not like push-ups with form etc. Its quite hard to drop the sand-bag "handle" that you wrap your arms around.

 

[ARMY_101]

I gather then that if you drop the sand bag, you're not allowed to pick it up again?  Hmmm.  Does this mean that if you're in a real combat situation and you lose your grip on a casualty, you're just supposed to stop and leave the guy there?  I thought this test was supposed to simulate reality.  This sounds like a repeat of the problem with push-ups on the ExPres Test where if you shifted your hand, you had to stop at that point (one of my subordinates who was until that point headed to an "Exempt" ended up failing the test over that one).

You are given a repeat on 3/4 of the exercises, the casualty drag included. The only exercises which, if failed is an automatic FORCE failure, is the sandbag lift/touch the wall.

 

[GnyHwy]

Update on my boss, she did the FORCE test this morning but failed the sand bag drag.  She told be that she had like 5 metre to go but the bag you carry in your arm was getting low and she dropped it.  With a little more training i think she'll be able to pass it.  Which leads me to my next point.  An email came out in the NCR yesterday looking for females (all rank shape and size) to form a WG to "further investigate the vehicle extrication task".  So i am trying to convince her to participate because if only Zena type female show up it won't provide reliable data.

From what I have heard, these (small and light) body types are the only ones that have difficulty with this part of the test; damn you Isaac Newton!  Even with an extreme light build, I believe that technique will go a long way.  She needs to lean back and get the feet pumping as fast as she can, and don't stop. 

I guess this one to designed to bring the morale of fat guys back up, after they struggle with the other exercises.

 

[armyvern]

You are given a repeat on 3/4 of the exercises, the casualty drag included. The only exercises which, if failed is an automatic FORCE failure, is the sandbag lift/touch the wall.

Hmmm, when we did our tests at this location, we were advised by PSP that only the shuttle could be re-tested after a 5 minute break if failed.  Pers that did the test on Tuesday this week were briefed the same.  No one failed.

Just where are you located at if they are allowing retests outside of the shuttle?

 

[ARMY_101]

Just where are you located at if they are allowing retests outside of the shuttle?

That was the PSP staff at the Asticou Centre in Gatineau.

 

[caocao]

Well the same staff atasticoutold my boss exactly what Vern was saying, the only retest allowed is the shuttle.

 

[Poppa]

Funny, we were told that retests are given on everything except the sand bag lift

 

[armyvern]

Funny, we were told that retests are given on everything except the sand bag lift

Were you told this at Asticou too? 

Veddy, veddy interesting ... I wonder how many Asticou has "passed" on a retest at Asticou who would have been given fails elsewhwere. Or the vive versa - how many troops outside of Asticou (Ottawa) have been given fails when they'd have been given a retest in Ottawa.

Something's hinky.

 

[armyvern]

Well the same staff atasticoutold my boss exactly what Vern was saying, the only retest allowed is the shuttle.

Sooooo, if I were a CWO in Ottawa, I'd be all over this.  Seems there may be a double standard happening at Asticou Centre (I love going on course there BTW) with their FORCE testing depending upon which PSP staff is fronting it that day.  The rules for retest that your boss got were correct.

I am now left wondering how many "passed" through on unallowed retests.

 

[Pusser]

Regardless of what the policy actually is regarding immediate re-tests, the general rule does seem to be that some (if not all) tests can be re-done on the spot if initially failed.  It seems to me that it should be all or none.  Allowing immediate re-tests on only one/some of the tests seems somewhat arbitrary and I'm curious as to the reasoning.

I've always maintained that the old ExPres policy of making an individual automatically wait three months (yes, I know a CO could recommend a waiver of this) was a tad silly.  There is a difference between the person who's gasping, wheezing and clutching his/her chest before collapsing during the shuttle run and someone who's having a bad day and slips on a push-up.  From what I'm seeing here, it seems that the FORCE test has similar issues.  I really don't see why a person cannot immediately attempt to do any test again if circumstance permit.  After all, if they fail it the first time and then pass on the second attempt (when logically they have a little less energy than at the first attempt), then they are obviously fit enough to pass the test.  What's the big deal?  From an administrative point of view getting as many people through the first time is beneficial to all (PSP staff don't have to run as many testing sessions and units don't have to lose their personnel as often).

 

[GnyHwy]

It makes sense to have a retest on the shuttle and the drag as these tests can be failed with a simple stumble. 

The sand bag lift and sandbag walk/run provide more than ample time to recover, even if you fell flat on your face and needed time to stop the bleeding first.

Sooooo, if I were a CWO in Ottawa, I'd be all over this.  Seems there may be a double standard happening at Asticou Centre (I love going on course there BTW) with their FORCE testing depending upon which PSP staff is fronting it that day.  The rules for retest that your boss got were correct.

This one blows me away and I know it is probably happening.  I have personally heard PSP opinions on certain tests being too easy, so I guess they might feel the need to "save" us from our mistakes.  Kind of a Bradley Manning thing, where they believe they know best, even though they don't know crap.

This is simply staff not knowing their role. 

 

[ARMY_101]

Sooooo, if I were a CWO in Ottawa, I'd be all over this.  Seems there may be a double standard happening at Asticou Centre (I love going on course there BTW) with their FORCE testing depending upon which PSP staff is fronting it that day.  The rules for retest that your boss got were correct.

I am now left wondering how many "passed" through on unallowed retests.

Since the test is still "new" and failures can still do the EXPRES test, maybe they're varying the standards to see which ones they can raise without too many people failing?

 

[ARMY_101]

Regardless of what the policy actually is regarding immediate re-tests, the general rule does seem to be that some (if not all) tests can be re-done on the spot if initially failed.  It seems to me that it should be all or none.  Allowing immediate re-tests on only one/some of the tests seems somewhat arbitrary and I'm curious as to the reasoning.

The reasoning we were given was that the sandbang lift-and-touch-the-wall was a more absolute measure of fatiguing muscle strength: if you couldn't do it in the 3+ minutes you were given, you wouldn't be able to do it. However, if you slipped while doing the casualty drag or intermittent sprints, you should be able to try again without having that considered a failure. That was the reasoning for us anyway.