Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

[Navy_Pete]

I think the FORCE test is a reasonable baseline test but should be augmented by job specific tests as well (BFT, FF test etc) as required.

No one expects an infanteer to be able to do my job, why should I be able to competently do theirs?  I think the Universality of service looks good on paper but is a bad policy considering the range of possible employment anyone in uniform has.

I guess the question is, if it does wash out a 4'2" 90 lb superfit and highly competent support trade, does it really matter if they can't drag someone, or strap on a bunch of weight and carry it around?  I can think of a number of big strong guys that the last thing I really want to be around is them with a rifle, as they are more likely to accidentally shoot me then a bad guy.  At the very least they should allow easy transfer into a related DND civilian job for someone like that, so that the competencies aren't lost but there isn't the requirement to deploy anywhere.

 

[caocao]

I hear you but it does matter if that person is expected to deploy which ultimately everyone should be able to. 

 

[Northalbertan]

Even the CIC are completing the FORCE fit.  We have the PSP folks coming out to all of the courses in our region to administer the tests.  The expectation in our world right now is that everyone will have to complete the test by 1 April 14.  Not sure if they have to pass yet, or what happens if they don't.  I passed it easily enough.

I think it is good to have the standard applied to the CIC.  My personal opinion is if you wear the uniform, meet the standard.  As an organization I am still unclear as to what will happen if you fail to meet the standard.  Big push to make everyone aware of and sign up with DFIT so maybe (hopefully) it will apply to COATS.

NorthAlbertan

 

[Franko]

Now that I've purged the tit-for-tat....take it to PMs.

The Army.ca Staff

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

I hear you but it does matter if that person is expected to deploy which ultimately everyone should be able to.

I would rather have a 90 lb but competent girl with me than a super fit glue bag. That said, fitness is important and necessary. The Idea of military PT is to get a TEAM to meet the deployment standard, not to make them ready for an audition on American Gladiator.

Deployment for that matter may mean on a ship, on a plane, or with the army, meaning all pers have different physical and technical requirements. The force gives us a baseline capability to deploy in 3 elements. If you want to go for jtf 2 it's a worthy endeavour. For me, personally, I prefer to be technically competent and maintain my army level 3 fitness level than spend more time in the gym.

 

[OldSolduer]

That said, fitness is important and necessary. The Idea of military PT is to get a TEAM to meet the deployment standard, not to make them ready for an audition on American Gladiator.

The force gives us a baseline capability to deploy in 3 elements. If you want to go for jtf 2 it's a worthy endeavour. For me, personally, I prefer to be technically competent and maintain my army level 3 fitness level than spend more time in the gym.

Good points. I tell my troops that it ain't required to be Navy Seal fit. Pass the FORCE test and I will be happy.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm wondering if they factored in the need to prepare 175lb soldiers to carry 138lbs of weapons and equipment on operations and, if not, what the fitness experts say we should do to kick it up a notch.

Viz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEEm6d77pZA

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Those aren't issued, made in Canada boots!  Holy handgrenade!!!

anic:

 

[Transporter]

Did the test today for the first time. I found the times allotted for each of the exercises to be fairly generous but I guess with one standard they have to factor in all ages, etc. Did the sand bag lifts in 60 secs, loaded shuttles in 2:50, 20M rushes in 39 secs, and sand bag drag in 22 secs. I'm on the downside of my career not far off CRA but do my PT regularly (but certainly not a gym rat by any stretch). All to say, I don't think anyone should have a problem doing this test provided they make the effort to stay reasonably fit day-in and day-out. There were two females in my group and they were both what I'd consider to be on the smaller side. They both passed without any problems, though I think both were worried most about the sand bag drag. Overall, I liked the new test more so than the EXPRESS test. It was actually fun to do whereas the EXPRESS test had gotten a little boring over the years I thought.

 

[McG]

... if it does wash out a 4'2" 90 lb superfit and highly competent support trade, does it really matter if they can't drag someone, or strap on a bunch of weight and carry it around?

Anyone in the CAF could find themself in a position wher they have to get a casualty out of somewhere.  It does matter.

Of course, this same concern could (and maybe should) be used to establish an unconditional CAF individual weight limit.  If you are "super-fit" but so heavy that nobody could extract you as a casualty, then should you be in harms way?

 

[Ice97]

The times are a little high because it is the first year for it and they are probably trying to get a baseline ie exemptions and such.  Which is why they time your drag even though you have as much time as you need as long as you don't stop. 

The times definately need to be adjusted.  3:30 for the lift is quite a bit of time....most people were between 1:00-1:10.  The 5+ mins allotted for the run/lift is way too much time.  A few people walked the entire thing and still did it in 4 mins.  The 51 secs for the dashes was a bout right as most people were between 38-45 seconds.

The only thing I didn't agree with was the drag.  In the NCR we were told that Gatineau was the only location we could do it at.....but because of the lack of grip on the floor they had to add 60lbs.  So instead of 220....it was 280.  I didn't agree that people were failing....when the weight they had to drag exceeded the standard.

I do like this test alot better than the Express Test

 

[PMedMoe]

So, what you're saying is that the times used for the FORCE test are not the actual times?  So people who have "passed" this test haven't really passed?    ???

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Your post adds nothing either. Folks in my unit take the time to do PT, i sometime have time to do my own PT during working hours, my CO really does but the troops do and that is what matters.

Most of the military doesn't work at Disneyland on the Rideau, or it's general vicinity, either.

 

[ModlrMike]

The only thing I didn't agree with was the drag.  In the NCR we were told that Gatineau was the only location we could do it at.....but because of the lack of grip on the floor they had to add 60lbs.  So instead of 220....it was 280.  I didn't agree that people were failing....when the weight they had to drag exceeded the standard.

[geek alert]

This is where I have the most difficulty accepting the "standard". If you have to alter the weight due to the resistance of the floor then how do you measure the baseline coefficient of friction*, the coefficient of friction for the test location surface, and how do you know how much additional weight to add or subtract? While simply adding or subtracting weight will affect the resistance of the drag, A + B =/= C because the math is logarithmic not linear.

The best solution would be to develop or select a specific type of flooring and issue an appropriately sized portion to each testing location. Then the variables would be reduced to a minimum and the test would become more standardized. The current practice of adding weight without accurate measurement of the effect defies the definition of standard.

I do like this test a lot better than the Express Test

I agree, a more realistic representation of the expectations of the job.


*Coefficient of friction: the ratio of the force of friction between two bodies and the force pressing them together.

[/geek alert]

 

[upandatom]

I'm wondering if they factored in the need to prepare 175lb soldiers to carry 138lbs of weapons and equipment on operations and, if not, what the fitness experts say we should do to kick it up a notch.

Viz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEEm6d77pZA

Which is funny because a while ago on this thread I read that "The typical soldier is expected to be small and wirey"
I find that an old school mentality. Compare the Kit we would carry on a regular PP from more recent operations to those of past, we are carrying alot more.
We are becoming a more mobile force, more vehicles, faster vehicles, safer vehicles. The need to be able to run or march from here to the end of the earth is slowly going the way of the dinosaur.

 

[George Wallace]

We are becoming a more mobile force, more vehicles, faster vehicles, safer vehicles. The need to be able to run or march from here to the end of the earth is slowly going the way of the dinosaur.

I guess you don't understand that one has to be able to do the "basics".  The "basics" here is that a soldier has to be able to "run or march from here to the end of the earth" to survive.  Move vehicles, faster vehicles, safer vehicles, etc. only means one thing: more and bigger IEDs/mines/ambushes/etc.  In the end, the soldier will only be left with the basics once his/her vehicle is incapacitated......That means physically fit and able to run and march.  There is no going the way of the dinosaur here.

 

[Ice97]

So, what you're saying is that the times used for the FORCE test are not the actual times?  So people who have "passed" this test haven't really passed?    ???

They are the real times...and people that passed...passed.  Can't speak for every unit....but at my unit everyone has to do the FORCE Test this year.  If you pass then great.  If you don't pass then you do the regular express test.  But we were told that come April 2014....the FORCE Test will be the only test.

But the times can and most likely will change.  It's the first year for it....it's still brand new.  We were told that the average times and such will be calculated and within a few years there will probably be an exemption.  And even the times needed to pass will probably go down.  I'm not saying that i'm the fittest person ever.....but 5 1/2 mins for 400m is pathetic...sandbag or not.

It's all speculation at this point and all we can do is wait til something concrete is in writing.  I for one liked the FORCE Test and cannot wait until there is an exemption for it.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

We are becoming a more mobile force, more vehicles, faster vehicles, safer vehicles. The need to be able to run or march from here to the end of the earth is slowly going the way of the dinosaur.

And that mindset is probably a large factor in the burgeoning obesity epidemic in the forces. As GW stated, you don't understand why soldiers will always need to do 'the basics'.

 

[x_para76]

Which is funny because a while ago on this thread I read that "The typical soldier is expected to be small and wirey"
I find that an old school mentality. Compare the Kit we would carry on a regular PP from more recent operations to those of past, we are carrying alot more.
We are becoming a more mobile force, more vehicles, faster vehicles, safer vehicles. The need to be able to run or march from here to the end of the earth is slowly going the way of the dinosaur.

I'm afraid that G.W and I are in agreement on this one for a change.  As you said we're carrying more weight than ever before and even though our methods of transport have improved the basic job has stayed the same. There's no point in getting someone up to the start line of an attack that doesn't have the physical fitness to actually conduct one. 

 

[dapaterson]

The standard will not change - it's been validated against the tasks that all CF members must be able to provide.  Incentive levels may be introduced, however, the pass/fail levels are supported by hard research and won't be changed unless the common military tasks are changed.

And there's nothing to prevent a unit or sub-unit command team from fostering competition; for example, a CO could offer a day of short to anyone who can beat his times in all the tests.