Going to 3 RCR on the 21st, Ordered a custom CADPAT Vest.............

[vonGarvin]

Haircuts mean battlefield efficiency. Properly shined boots means you can kill the enemy quicker.

I disagree.  Haircuts and properly shined boots means (a) you respond to and comply with orders (b) you have pride in self and (c) you pay attention to detail.  After all, if you can't get them to cut their hair and shine their boots in garrison, how can you expect them to follow your direction in the heat of battle?

 

[George Wallace]

I never understood this one.

Recently the argument was made to me that in a PSO it is imperative to look professional. If we're all dressed alike, then it gives a good impression of Canadians and supports our cause. But I don't buy that for a second. All the parade ground dress regulations in the world don't save you from bullets and IEDs, and as soon as guys start getting wacked because they can't draw their mags fast enough any bit of professionalism the locals thought we had just went out the window.

They talk about the "new way wars are won", "asymetirc warfare", and "the 3 block war". Really what alot of that stuff boils down to is the fact that the decisions a pte/cpl makes on the ground could have far-reaching consequences. When it comes to winning hearts and minds, a wrong move at the lowest levels could be a disaster. Its a big responsibility placed on the lowest rank levels.... but the army doesn't trust us to dress ourselves? I'm qualified to use all nasty sorts of ways to kill people, and I'm trusted to only use these skills legally. But I'm not qualified to look at a piece of kit and say "ya know what? That one works better. It's going to help me do my job because what was issued me was designed by some colonel-in-charge-of-pencils who's looking for a good vest for the PWT3".

Gimme a break.

Give you a break?  I don't know where to start on your little tirade.  Obviously you have no idea of what a uniform is, nor what uniformity entails.  There are a few things that I disagree with in this discussion and a few things that I agree with, but your little tirade takes the cake.  If we were to be allowed to dress completely as we pleased, then we wouldn't be "uniform" nor easily identifiable on the battlefield.  Wouldn't it be great to have to tell a whole bunch of families that their child who was serving overseas as a member of the CF was killed because (s)he was wearing something not easily identifiable as CF and was shot by mistake.  "Oops! I thought you were Taliban!"  "Sorry!"  Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it. 

Should Mortarmen wear the same TV as Infanteers?  Should Armd Crewmen wear the same TV as Infanteers?  No, not really, but they must be standardized within their own organizations.  If everyone bought their own, then we would have a real problem.  We'll start looking like our enemy, who has no QM and must buy or make his own.  Not being uniform will cause needless deaths.  All the technology in the world will not change that.

 

[GAP]

I disagree.  Haircuts and properly shined boots means (a) you respond to and comply with orders (b) you have pride in self and (c) you pay attention to detail.  After all, if you can't get them to cut their hair and shine their boots in garrison, how can you expect them to follow your direction in the heat of battle?

I couldn't have worded it better. +1 

 

[HItorMiss]

Should Mortarmen wear the same TV as Infanteers?   Should Armd Crewmen wear the same TV as Infanteers?  No, not really, but they must be standardized within their own organizations.  If everyone bought their own, then we would have a real problem.  We'll start looking like our enemy, who has no QM and must buy or make his own.  Not being uniform will cause needless deaths.  All the technology in the world will not change that.

Sorry GW couldn't disagree more and I sure the Brits and the PPCLI have proved it over and over again, I don;t care who makes it all I care about is it CADPAT then you eliminate this whole "whoops thing" you want to wear a Warlord vest, fine get it in CADPAT, You want XYZ...fine get it in CADPAT then you can wear what you want and still look Canadian.

Thinking like it isn't issue then your not to wear it, may/will cost lives sooner or later we need to move into the 21st century in our mind set and understand that Issue kit is not always even close to good enough (lowest bidder people) lets stop thinking were in the Korean War era and start looking to the future.

*EDIT for Clarity

 

[vonGarvin]

Sorry GW couldn't disagree more and I sure the Brits and the PPCLI have proved it over and over again, I don;t care who makes it all I care about is it CADPAT then you eliminate this whole "whoops thing" you want to wear a Warlord vest, fine get it in CADPAT, You want XYZ...fine get it in CADPAT then you can wear what you want and still look Canadian.

Thinking like if it isn't issue then your not to wear may/will cost lives sooner or later we need to move into the 21st century in our mind set and understand that Issue kit is not always even close to good enough (lowest bidder people) lets stop thinking were in the Korean War era and start looking to the future.

I hope I don't lose my regimental banner over this, but this makes sense: to a point. 
(a) CADPAT for all "stuff"
(b) Gear at crown expense OR reimbursable to said member if said gear is deemed necessary
(c) Gear must be approved by the crown for use on operations (in other words, so long as a person in the chain of command decrees, for example, that said pair of boots meets the requirements for said operation).  Unfortunately, it's a liability issue in that case.

 

[HItorMiss]

Honestly all it will take would be 1 Royal RSM to get his head out of his 5th point of contact and things might change, all be it very slow;y for us Royals...then again I hear good things coming from 3 RCR from the new RSM.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Admittedly not ever having been in a firefight (nor even as much as played paintball), I feel compelled to ask - is there a historical precedent for "guys ... getting wacked (sic) because they can't draw their mags fast enough"?

I mean, don't we operate in sections, with fire control orders and G.R.I.T. and all that good stuff, in order to prevent situations where a battle is won or lost based on how fast one individual can pull one magazine out of his pouch?

It just doesn't seem like a valid argument to me, but of course I defer to those who do it for real.

Having said that, the entire point of the creation of CADPAT seems to be, as HoM points out, giving us a unique "uniform" look. How many people really select targets based on the type of load bearing gear they are carrying in any event? Wouldn't target identification be made through the uniform itself, headgear, possibly racial characteristics, weapons carried, type of vehicle used, etc.? I have to agree that if something is in CADPAT that meets the standard of identifying him - especially if he is carrying a C7, wearing CADPAT uniform and wearing a CADPAT helmet cover. 

Then again, in winter whites, the same problem of target identification applies, doesn't it?

 

[HItorMiss]

Ever been number 1 in the stack? yup guess what when your round doesn't feed properly or your hear that click you better be changing mags quick. And sure we have fire control and sections but when rounds are coming you way and you run empty it just maybe that someone else in the line ran dry to and now your 2 weapons down, now it really does matter how fast that mag goes on.

You haven't got the experience to be playing in this conversation, wise of you to admit it.

 

[GAP]

Admittedly not ever having been in a firefight (nor even as much as played paintball), I feel compelled to ask - is there a historical precedent for "guys ... getting wacked (sic) because they can't draw their mags fast enough"?

I don't know about CF statistics, but I have personally had 2 friends hit while struggling to get a magazine out of the fabric crossed bandoleers we carried extra ammo in. In an ambush or heavy contact, there are bullets flying everwhere, some with your name on them. You go through ammo at a phenomenal rate, and you don't even remember changing the magazine, it is automatic, but you sure remember struggling with trying to get the magazine out of the bandoleer, it's 2 seconds you can't afford

 

[Michael Dorosh]

You haven't got the experience to be playing in this conversation, wise of you to admit it.

Is the point of the forum to come on board and boast about one's achievements and belittle others for their lack of knowledge, or to learn about things?

I tend to do both. Guess what I was just doing?  Thanks to you and GAP for the info.

 

[Trinity]

Guess what I was just doing?

Straying out of your lane? 

Some people come to use sarcasm too.

 

[HItorMiss]

Is the point of the forum to come on board and boast about one's achievements and belittle others for their lack of knowledge, or to learn about things?

all of the above if you have achievements to be proud or like promotion or courses, sometimes belittling them is the only way they will learn, I have learned a lot because I only post in threads I have experience in.

I tend to do both. Guess what I was just doing? 

not following the advice you have often given others and staid silent and learned by reading.

your welcome for the knowledge btw Glad it could be useful

 

[paffomaybe]

One example in favour of uniform uniformity:  I was told that the first aid kit needs to be in the same pocket at all time.  If you go down, the person who comes across you takes your kit (not his own) to repair you.  If you're wearing non-standard kit, it goes to follow that problems could arise (like  :skull?

 

[HItorMiss]

OK this thread is getting high jacked and it's all been dicussed before at length.

As for first aid supplies most vest have an equivilant pocket to put that in or a marked pocket for it with the red (tactical black) cross to give the medic or fireteam partner a clue as to were it is, so really that's a moot point.

 

[Fusaki]

Give you a break?  I don't know where to start on your little tirade.  Obviously you have no idea of what a uniform is, nor what uniformity entails.  There are a few things that I disagree with in this discussion and a few things that I agree with, but your little tirade takes the cake.  If we were to be allowed to dress completely as we pleased, then we wouldn't be "uniform" nor easily identifiable on the battlefield.  Wouldn't it be great to have to tell a whole bunch of families that their child who was serving overseas as a member of the CF was killed because (s)he was wearing something not easily identifiable as CF and was shot by mistake.  "Oops! I thought you were Taliban!"  "Sorry!"  Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it.

If you're so messed up that you can't identify CADPAT in a firefight, then you probably wont be able to identify which vest a guy is wearing either. Like HoM said, a CADPAT vest would be the ideal and these are becoming more and more common as people wake up. Even though friendly troops might shoot at me by mistake, the Taliban will do it on purpose. I'll take my chances with a chest rig.

And its still better then telling mom and dad their son died because looking the same is more important than winning the firefight.

Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it.

 

[George Wallace]

Well....I am glad that you can accurately ID CADPAT out at 500 + meters in low visibility.  My eyes and sights don't always cut it on those longer ranges.  Now put a turban or ball cap on the SF guys and what do you see?  Or perhaps the CADPAT Cape/poncho/ground sheet?  At a distance, where I would perfer to stop the enemy, it is sometimes difficult to ID individuals, even vehicles.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Fact.  The kit does not make the man.  The kit makes the man do the job easier. 
It is clear that rounds are used at a huge rate in a fire fight and go back to the LAV to get more ammo is not necessarily practical.  Also having more rounds loaded ie 10 mags over 5 ensure that more rounds go down range quicker.  Fumbling to get your grenade out of its pocket will definitely become problematic.  The quicker you can get that grenade out the better.

Fact.  Discipline is integral to a professional army and a few of the ways to do that is to look the same, show up on time and in the proper state of dress.  However if the troops don't have that professionalism or discipline when they deploy using aftermarket kit then they never will.
I would rather go into a fight knowing I have the best armour, best load bearing vest, the best sight, the best boots etc and get charged then looking like the other guy for the Army's yes men of the RCR.

 

[glock17]

Ever been number 1 in the stack? yup guess what when your round doesn't feed properly or your hear that click you better be changing mags quick. And sure we have fire control and sections but when rounds are coming you way and you run empty it just maybe that someone else in the line ran dry to and now your 2 weapons down, now it really does matter how fast that mag goes on.

You haven't got the experience to be playing in this conversation, wise of you to admit it.

Sorry for the highjack but:  Do they not teach IA's & stoppages anymore?  Or, is the first one " chang mags" ?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

They do teach IA's and changing mags is one of them.

P.S.  the postion of the bolt on the C7 dictates which to use.

 

[glock17]

"Seen"

Thanks