Hamas wins majority in democratic Palestinian Elections

[GO!!!]

It's not that the West just doesn't like them.  Its that their use of  violence and platform of Israel's destruction rules out any chance of having a legitimate dialog with them.

Yes, we could not possibly have a legitimate dialogue with a nation that uses violence!

We (the western world) have prided ourselves on our "defence and spread" of democracy since the end of WW2. This is democracy looking us right in the eye. If we refuse to deal with the new Palestinian Government, we have removed any veneer of legitimacy that we had left.

We either deal with Hamas on an even footing, as a national government with valid and popular policy goals, or we stop all of our efforts to spread our particular flavour of government and morality (internationalist liberal), as we are obviously pursuing our national interest, and little else.

The Arab world would be a far better ally than tiny, militaristic Israel, simply "by the numbers", so I fail to see why we are condemning an election result and government that used means freer and more democratic than our own!

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Well GO I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree and I'll leave it at that.

 

[48Highlander]

Yes, we could not possibly have a legitimate dialogue with a nation that uses violence!

Funny how you picked up on the "violence" bit, yet totaly disregaurded the fact that the following 5 words of his statement were "and platform of Israel's destruction".

We (the western world) have prided ourselves on our "defence and spread" of democracy since the end of WW2. This is democracy looking us right in the eye. If we refuse to deal with the new Palestinian Government, we have removed any veneer of legitimacy that we had left.

Once again, Hitler's government was techincaly quite democratic.  So was Iran's and Iraq's.  It remains to be seen wether the Palestinian government will remain a democracy.  In the meantime, a bit of caution is in order.

We either deal with Hamas on an even footing, as a national government with valid and popular policy goals, or we stop all of our efforts to spread our particular flavour of government and morality (internationalist liberal), as we are obviously pursuing our national interest, and little else.

The Arab world would be a far better ally than tiny, militaristic Israel, simply "by the numbers", so I fail to see why we are condemning an election result and government that used means freer and more democratic than our own!

Because we don't operate purely "by the numbers", otherwise, we'd be telling China it's a-ok to oppress their people as long as they're on our side when the fighting starts, and the cold-war would have never been an issue because we would have signed an alliance with the USSR.  We look at other aspects of a country when considering allies.  A country being lead by a party which advocated genocide PROBABLY wouldn't make a very good ally.  That's just my guess though.  If you think we should team up with genocidal maniacs, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

[Glorified Ape]

Yes, we could not possibly have a legitimate dialogue with a nation that uses violence!

We (the western world) have prided ourselves on our "defence and spread" of democracy since the end of WW2. This is democracy looking us right in the eye. If we refuse to deal with the new Palestinian Government, we have removed any veneer of legitimacy that we had left.

I'd wager that veneer rubbed off a long time ago, but you're absolutely right.

We either deal with Hamas on an even footing, as a national government with valid and popular policy goals, or we stop all of our efforts to spread our particular flavour of government and morality (internationalist liberal), as we are obviously pursuing our national interest, and little else.

I'd put money on the latter, as I've really seen little evidence of anything else. Again, you're absolutely right - they were democratically elected and not dealing with them would be stupid. Iran has espoused the same things Hamas has but the West still deals with it. Of course, they're not democratically elected - they had a democratic government once but its policies on the domestic oil industry weren't favourable to US and British interests so the US and Britain staged a coup. Glorious, glorious democracy - our brand of freedom export is a light, a big, shiny, bone bleaching and earth-scorching light.  :

The Arab world would be a far better ally than tiny, militaristic Israel, simply "by the numbers", so I fail to see why we are condemning an election result and government that used means freer and more democratic than our own!

Again, I agree completely. I'm not clear what you're referring to as "freer and more democratic" means, though? Having Israel as an ally causes more harm than it's worth, especially considering its frequently despicable behaviour throughout the years while claiming innocence and love of "liberty" and "democracy". If we're going to deal with a**holes, we might as well deal with ones that compose a regional majority.

 

[a_majoor]

Democracy refers to the process where the people choose how they will be governed. If the government they choose is an outlaw regime which violates the rule of law at home or internationally, then that government should be taken to account (even to the point of enforced regime change, should they change from a nuisance to an actual threat). As for the people who voted these clowns in? They need to learn there ARE consequences to every action.

As has been pointed out ad nausium, most dictators like to hold elections to show how "democratic" they are. Some even use the word "Republic" in their national titles, both actions to mock us (and fool the soft headed).

Some predictions about the Hamas "government" of Palestine; they will be as big a gang of thieves as the ones they replaced, they will rule through the use of violence directed at their internal opponents, they will use their status as "government" to spout anti-Semitic propaganda at every opportunity and hijack legitimate and semi legitimate forums to do so, and they will never rest until they either achieve their states goal of the destruction of Israel, or die trying.

There is no requirement for us to do anything other than to acknowledge they were properly elected, and tell them that they are not invited to discourse with civilized nations until they show by both word and deed (our error with Arafat) they have indeed changed. The burden of proof is on them, not us.

 

[enfield]

In the short term this is very bad. However, in the long term, I see this election as recognizing the reality of power. Hamas has - or will - exterminate/absorb its enemies and unify the Palestinians. Rather than trying to create an artificial political arrangement through negotiation, the most powerful faction has been given an overwhelming mandate. Good - better a landslide than a 50-50 split.

Hamas will evolve, just as the PLO evolved, and other insurgent/opposition/terrorist groups have had to change once they achieved power. It won't be pretty, but the requirements of Administration are very different than the requirements of opposition.

However, I echo the concerns voiced earlier - the West may pull out of peace negotiations and support of the PA, and the void could be filled with Islamic extremist elements.

I think this victory makes Hamas more vulnerable to Israel and accountable to the people: Hamas now "owns" all the infrastructure (ie targets) and is responsible for any commitments it makes. As the government it is a bigger target to Israeli action, and more accountable to its people.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I think that in the short to medium term this validates Ariel Sharon’s separation strategy.  For the time being almost all the people in the region will opt for whichever anti-Israel party seems the most aggressive.  Negotiations have to be kept going because the Americans insist but they are pro-forma, only; real peace is a generation away, maybe more.

I think that in the longer term all real democratic experiments are good, for us.  As people become more and more comfortable with democracy and as they learn, as a_majoor says, that democratic actions have consequences they will become more demanding of their elected leaders and more discerning in electing them.

If what I have read is true Hamas has, already, demonstrated that it can provide hones and effective administrative and social services.  It may provide what the Palestinians need almost as much as they need peace and security: an honest, reasonably efficient national government.

 

[Armymedic]

I see a flip side as well.

War can be legally declared on another nation. Trade embargos can be legally declared upon another nation.

It may be easier to deal with Hamas now that they are "exposed" as a legal gov't

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"War can be legally declared on another nation. Trade embargos can be legally declared upon another nation.

It may be easier to deal with Hamas now that they are "exposed" as a legal gov't."

Totally agree.

 

[48Highlander]

I see a flip side as well.

War can be legally declared on another nation. Trade embargos can be legally declared upon another nation.

It may be easier to deal with Hamas now that they are "exposed" as a legal gov't

Yes, but you know that any such acts against "Palestine" will just end up being called illegal anyway.  Gotta have the UN's approval, and the UN is more interested in picking on Israel.  So we'd have protestors in the streets bitching about the illegal occupation of palestine by western forces, holding "No war for Oil" signs, and caricatures comparing Bush and Harper to Hitler.  Same old, same old.  If the Hamas develop a good PR department, we're screwed.

 

[Armymedic]

If the Hamas develop a good PR department, we're screwed.

I concur. They figured out the first part of the game and got elected, won't be long before they can set up a situation that makes the western countries look bad to their own electorate.

 

[GO!!!]

Again, I agree completely. I'm not clear what you're referring to as "freer and more democratic" means, though? Having Israel as an ally causes more harm than it's worth, especially considering its frequently despicable behaviour throughout the years while claiming innocence and love of "liberty" and "democracy". If we're going to deal with a**holes, we might as well deal with ones that compose a regional majority.

My statement to the "more democratic means" is based solely on the voter turnout - 86% was the number I read.

We are really dealing with two groups of genocidal maniacs, as 48th alluded to, and I am of the opinion that neither is "better" than the other.
If we are to be allied with one, I would prefer it to be the Arab/Persian bloc, as opposed to the Zionist one - Israel is not going to nuke us for neglecting them, but the Iranians just might nuke us for continuing to support Israel.

 

[Quiet Riot]

I think there are better was to choose allies, than just solely making alliances with those who hold the most power in the region.  Hamas as alot to prove before most westerners take it seriously(at least to me).  Hamas can't even get along with the other political parties in Palestine, I doubt their skills at international relations will be much better.  And how can Israel and Palestine have peace talks now?  One ruling party is calling for the eradication of the others country.

 

[Praetorian]

This talk of switching from Israeli alliances to Arab ones will please only one group:
Israel
Lets face it the only thing holding the Israelis back is the west, with the American Leesh removed theyd be more then willing to wipe the Middle East as we know it off the map.
In every single conflict, regardless of technological or numerical advantage, the Arab nations have proven themselves adept at getting their *sses kicked.
I believe the Israeli cabinet is licking its lips, Hamas is now legit and all they have to do is wait for it to cross the line and blast it back to the stone age.
Even the Americans acknowledge that in a regional conflict, even America would be unable to stop Israel, see EX MILLENIUM CHALLENGE.
Israel is there to stay, for the Arabs to remove them would be like the natives removing us from Canada.

Besides, no matter how good ur PR section is, u wont be winning any hearts and minds while blowing oneself up in shopping malls.

Cheer...  mazel tuf (or something like that)  :cheers:

 

[Spr.Earl]

  Thoughts or opinions on the repreccussions ? .

Possibly what Sien Fein has had in Northern Island?
Let's wait and see.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060128/palestinian_ambush_060128

Gunmen briefly take over Palestinian parliament
CTV.ca News Staff

In a sign of growing instability following Hamas' election victory, gunmen and Palestinian police briefly took over the parliament buildings in the West Bank and Gaza Strip on Saturday.

Gunmen from the former ruling party of Fatah climbed on top of the Palestinian parliament building in Ramallah and fired shots Saturday, demanding the resignation of their party's leadership.

Meanwhile, dozens of armed police officers loyal to Fatah briefly stormed a parliament building in Gaza City to protest any transfer of security responsibility to Hamas.

"Everybody should know that we are not going to allow the Interior Ministry to belong to Hamas," the police said, referring to the government body that controls the security forces.

Most of the 58,000 members of the security forces are allied with Fatah and fear for their jobs under a Hamas-led government, as Hamas has its own armed force of about 5,000 gunmen in Gaza.

In earlier fighting in Gaza, Hamas gunmen wounded two Palestinian policemen in what authorities said was a roadside ambush early Saturday.

Clashes have erupted between gunmen from Fatah and Hamas since the Islamist group won a landslide victory in last week's Palestinian parliamentary election, which ended four decades of Fatah domination.

The election was a clear rejection of Fatah's corruption and inability to maintain order.

Before the vote, veteran Fatah leaders, those most tainted by corruption allegations, resisted repeated calls for reform by the party's young guard.

Demonstrators demanded the resignation of the party's entire central committee, however only a few Fatah activists called for Mahmoud Abbas, who is part of the committee, to step down.

Ismail Haniyeh, a Hamas leader in Gaza, said he asked Abbas to meet Sunday to discuss forming a government, but Abbas' office said no appointment had been made.

Hamas, responsible for dozens of suicide bombings on Israelis and listed as a terror organization by the United States and the European Union, has long called for the destruction of the Jewish state.

Canadian prime minister-designate Stephen Harper has suggested his Conservative government won't accept Hamas as long as it continues to support terrorism

 

[big bad john]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4658872.stm

Hamas floats Palestinian 'army' 

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal says the group will not disarm
The political leader of the Hamas militant group has said it could create a new Palestinian army following its surprise election victory.
Khaled Meshaal, who lives in exile in Syria, said the force would include its militant wing and would "defend our people against aggression".

His comments came after foreign powers called for Hamas to renounce violence.

Unrest continues in Gaza and the West Bank, with supporters of the defeated Fatah party staging violent protests.

Some involved clashes with Hamas activists, others were directed at the leadership of Fatah.

'No immunity'

Mr Meshaal said in the Syrian capital, Damascus, that Hamas had no plans to disarm.

"As long as we are under occupation then resistance is our right."

 


Profile: Ismail Haniya
World conundrum on Hamas
Hamas on agenda at Davos
In pictures: Palestinian unrest 

He said Hamas was ready to "unify the weapons of Palestinian factions, with Palestinian consensus, and form an army like any independent state... an army that protects our people against aggression".

But Mr Mashaal also said Hamas would abide by current agreements with Israel "as long as it is in the interest of our people".

Israel said on Saturday that no Hamas leaders would be immune from targeted killings if the group maintained aggression and continued to refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz said: "Whoever stands at the head of a terror organisation and continues to carry out terror attacks against Israel is not immune."

Senior Fatah figures also warned Hamas not to interfere in the Palestinian security forces - most of whom are linked to Fatah.

Gaza police chief Ala Hosni told Associated Press: "The security institution is a red line. We will not allow anyone to tamper with it."

  The victory of Hamas is a challenge, the people of Palestine have spoken and no-one should suppress their choice

Thomas Ayeni, Lagos


Palestinian poll: Your views
In quotes: World reaction
Israelis react
Palestinian press review 

Fatah supporters, security officers and members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade protested all over Gaza and the West Bank on Saturday following Hamas' victory.

Security forces in Gaza demanded Hamas figures responsible for killing policemen should be brought to trial.

Several people were wounded in an exchange of fire between Hamas supporters and members of Fatah in Khan Younis in Gaza.

In Ramallah on the West Bank, Fatah supporters also staged more protest against their own leadership, which they blame for the election defeat.

Some of the activists marched to the compound of Palestinian Authority leader and Fatah chief Mahmoud Abbas, later praying at the grave of former leader Yasser Arafat.

'Blackmail'

Mr Meshaal said he had been in contact with Mr Abbas and wanted to work in partnership with Fatah, although many senior Fatah officials say they do not want an alliance.


Fatah activists launched violent protests in Gaza and the West Bank

Hamas policy-maker Ghazi Ahmed Hamad said if Fatah did not join a government "we will try to form a government of technocrats".

Hamas has also rejected international calls for the group to renounce violence or face cuts in aid to Palestinians.

Ismail Haniya, who headed Hamas' election list, said: "This aid cannot be a sword over the heads of the Palestinian people and will not be material to blackmail our people, to blackmail Hamas and the resistance. It is rejected."

President George W Bush warned US aid, worth $400m (£225m), could be cut following Hamas' surprise poll win.

Hamas won at least 74 of the 132 seats in the Palestinian assembly and has the backing of a further four independent MPs.

 

[enfield]

There seems to be more than just the basic Fatah-Hamas animosity here. The existing government structure (beside the fact it was set up and manned by Fatah) doesn't trust Hamas since Hamas accused them for years of being collaborators and attacked them as such. The police and security forces don't want to work for the guys they were arresting and shooting at a few months ago. It's like trying to integrate the IRA and Royal Ulster Constabulary, or the Rhodesian Army and Mugabe's rebels. Can't be done - in the end, someone has to go.

A Hamas "Palestinian Army". Wonderful. What exactly is the point of that? Target practice for the IDF? Remove more money from a poverty stricken population to pay for an even more bloated security apparatus? Fight toe-to-toe with the Israeli Army and single handedly reclaim Palestine? The region needs less young men with guns, not more.

I still say recognizing the stronger party, and allowing them to clean house (however bloody) is the best course in the long term - and this will definitely get worse before it gets better. More worrying, however, is that this will likely cause a shift to the right in Israeli politics, and reaction to the Hamas victory will likely dominate the post-Ariel Sharon political debate and lead to a hardline government.

 

[48Highlander]

I get a good laugh every time I read about palestinian "police forces" or "ministries", especialy in articles like these.  I suppose I shouldn't, it's really sad more than anything else - their terrorist groups and their police forces act in pretty much the same manner.  Their roles are interchangable; one day the Fatah were terrorists, the next day became soldiers, politicians, and police officers.  Now the Hamas is forcing them out of power, and this time we're seing Hamas terrorists being turned into police officers, politicians, and soldiers, while the Fatah are once againd degenerating into a bunch of armed thugs.  It's not reasonable to expect anything else, yet western media, and Palestines supporters, keep clinging to the delusional that these organizations have some veneer of civility and legitimacy.  The more I learn about the place, the more I am of the opinion that the best thing that could have happened to them would have been for Israel to have annexed Palestine early on and gotten it over with.  Right now, all their society knows is corruption, death, murder, and lies.  As things stand now we would need to commit an army of psychiatrists to the region for a couple decades in order to turn things around.

 

[Shec]

So Fatah & Hamas are shooting at each other.  Great !!  That should thin out the herd a bit before the IDF has to go in to protect its citizens.   And what would be wrong with that?   It is not militarism as Israel has been accused of  on this and other related threads.  Arguably is it not a forward defence policy not unlike Canada's has traditionally been?    The essential fact is that Hamas has made it clear that it has no intention of backing down from its stated original strategic primary objective of wiping out Israel.  And Hamas is apparently bent upon creating a fundamentalist jihadist state.  That should keep any truly democratic Palestinian elements charging the mags for their AK-47s.  Well, as I think it was Santayana who once wrote,  people tend to get the government they deserve.     In the meantime what do you expect Israel to do - lie back and take it?