High Ranking Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly

[brihard]

And right now you guys are losing. How you right that ship is up to you guys. All I know is I think getting rid of the dummies who are cops just to break skulls is a good first move.

For sure. I’m just not a baby with the bath water guy, and the really egregious misconduct cases are dwarfed by false and vexatious allegations. Somewhere in the middle lies the relatively modest number of genuine misconduct matters that are of a fairly serious nature. And of course use of force cases are only a portion of this. Caution needs to be exercised in stripping pay or employment status.

No matter how good we get, we’ll never be faster than the witness who captures video (often selectively) of part of an interaction that is ugly to watch. Usually they’re the product of lawful and appropriate actions in bad circumstances, but it takes not long at all for a simply uninformed or downright bad/malicious take to go viral. That’s a reality we deal with. Picking the wheat from the chaff can be difficult and requires good investigation.

Just because you didn't ultimately commit a criminal act doesn't mean you shouldn't still lose your job.

Again, maybe you are just bad at your job? There should be consequences for being bad at your job. Especially when your poor performance leads to negative outcomes for others.

Well, in the case of police use of force, the criminal code is exactly where the threshold is and should be found, since that’s what enables police to use force at all. A police use of force that isn’t reasonable is inherently criminal, as it would fail the test under s.25 of the Criminal Code that can take what would otherwise be an assault, and make it legal in the course of execution of police duties.

Now, outside of the use of force context, I agree that there can be situations where a criminal offence is not committed (or a matter proceeds other than criminally, say an impaired driver handled administratively) but where there may be a misconduct justifying termination. Sexual misconduct, serious harassment, etc. I still believe a proper investigation needs to be conducted with a proper fact finding and a fair adjudication in such cases. Suspension without pay before a finding of guilt (or administrative equivalent) should be very rare and reserved only for really egregious cases.

We likely don’t and won’t agree on that, and that’s fine.

 

[mariomike]

It’s easy to take a case of a cop tipping a wheelchair and kicking someone in the face, and finding prima facile misconduct in it.

Not just police.

State Returns License to Fired Dallas Paramedic, Who Kicked Mentally Ill Man in Face​

State Returns License to Fired Dallas Paramedic Brad Cox, Who Kicked Mentally Ill Man in Face

The Texas Department of State Health Services issued an emergency suspension of Brad Cox's paramedic license last month. Cox, the former Dallas Fire-Rescue paramedic who was caught on video kicking a mentally ill man on the ground in 2019, got his license back last week. The state is still...

www.dallasobserver.com

Got his paramedic licence back too!

Particularly sad when brothers turn on brothers back at the station-house.
Apparently, they were arguing over Elvis Presley's birthday.

Victim of Staten Island firehouse brawl reaches $3.75M settlement with city

Fellow FDNY member smashed Robert Walsh in face with metal chair on New Year's Eve 2003

www.silive.com

smashed a metal chair up side of his head at Tottenville's Engine Co. 151/Ladder Co. 76 firehouse

We are pleased that the matter has been resolved amicably,

Paramedics get a raw deal in terms of compensation IMO, as do all Healthcare professionals.

That's for sure. But, YMMV depending on province, and jurisdiction within each province.

eg: One of our paramedics ( not a supervisor, just a street guy ) made $241,119 last year, according to the Sunshine List.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

For sure. I’m just not a baby with the bath water guy, and the really egregious misconduct cases are dwarfed by false and vexatious allegations. Somewhere in the middle lies the relatively modest number of genuine misconduct matters that are of a fairly serious nature. And of course use of force cases are only a portion of this. Caution needs to be exercised in stripping pay or employment status.

No matter how good we get, we’ll never be faster than the witness who captures video (often selectively) of part of an interaction that is ugly to watch. Usually they’re the product of lawful and appropriate actions in bad circumstances, but it takes not long at all for a simply uninformed or downright bad/malicious take to go viral. That’s a reality we deal with. Picking the wheat from the chaff can be difficult and requires good investigation.

What's wrong with being recorded? I am recorded 24/7 both on video and audio when I'm working. We have 4 to 6 video recorders in the cab, audio recorders outside and inside the cab and dashcams that captures video footage outside the cab. Data from the engines themselves are also recorded and can be downloaded by TC in the event of an accident.

I don't see why Police shouldn't be under any less scrutiny? People also record me all the time at work because people like recording trains. I am cognizant at all times that I am being recorded.

Well, in the case of police use of force, the criminal code is exactly where the threshold is and should be found, since that’s what enables police to use force at all. A police use of force that isn’t reasonable is inherently criminal, as it would fail the test under s.25 of the Criminal Code that can take what would otherwise be an assault, and make it legal in the course of execution of police duties.

Now, outside of the use of force context, I agree that there can be situations where a criminal offence is not committed (or a matter proceeds other than criminally, say an impaired driver handled administratively) but where there may be a misconduct justifying termination. Sexual misconduct, serious harassment, etc. I still believe a proper investigation needs to be conducted with a proper fact finding and a fair adjudication in such cases. Suspension without pay before a finding of guilt (or administrative equivalent) should be very rare and reserved only for really egregious cases.

Someone could be absolutely allowed to use a certain level of force and be criminally in the clear. That doesn't mean they didn't do a piss poor job in the execution of their duties.

Why should we accept sloppy performance? Just the way Officer Plummer interacted with that suspect shows he needs some retraining and probably an english class or two

We likely don’t and won’t agree on that, and that’s fine.

Agreed

 

[brihard]

What's wrong with being recorded? I am recorded 24/7 both on video and audio when I'm working. We have 4 to 6 video recorders in the cab, audio recorders outside and inside the cab and dashcams that captures video footage outside the cab. Data from the engines themselves are also recorded and can be downloaded by TC in the event of an accident.

I don't see why Police shouldn't be under any less scrutiny? People also record me all the time at work because people like recording trains. I am cognizant at all times that I am being recorded.

Where are you getting that I’m against being recorded? I have no issue with it at all. You just have to be live to the fact that a video recording will show one perspective from one angle of what can be captured visually, and maybe some audio. No more, no less. However, many viewers are not particularly discerning, and are quick to jump on a narrative of misconduct if a clip of video can be interpreted to fit their confirmation bias.

On the contrary, because I know that I am professional, lawful, and ethical, cameras make me happy. They protect me. I had my ass saved in a lawsuit once specifically because of the availability of video that showed me not doing something I was accused of. A citizen recorded video also caught me making a mistake once, a complaint against me resulted and was upheld (the only time in my career thus far). Totally fair game- though not malicious, I made a mistake I should not have made, and it’s on me to wear that.

I think widespread adoption of body cams is going to be great for us. Hopefully we as a profession can develop a norm of promptly releasing reasonable excerpts of footage when necessary to quickly demystify situations that are contentious or that are twisted to put us in a bad light. I’ve already seen I think Winnipeg do this really well a couple times. And if that also torpedoes some members of the profession who can’t uphold the expected level of conduct, that’s fine too- on that I’m sure we agreed.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

A friend if mine got fired from a small jail because of being recorded.
Coles note version.....inmate acting like asshole in A@D, decides he wants to fight the 2 officers, makes the attempt and is quickly subdued.

Friend gets fired because in his report he stated that the inmate moved into a fighting stance by bringing a foot forward and raising his fists. Upon video review they determined that the inmate only brought his hands up to challenge said officer and that meant he lied in his report.

HB, are you under that much scrutiny that, while being threatened to have the shit kicked out of you, you recite every explicit detail of your conduct?

"Ha!!! You didn't mention picking your nose 20 minutes prior to this incident but there goes the hand up on the video. ..."out ya' go."

Two different worlds my friend....

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

A friend if mine got fired from a small jail because of being recorded.
Coles note version.....inmate acting like asshole in A@D, decides he wants to fight the 2 officers, makes the attempt and is quickly subdued.

Friend gets fired because in his report he stated that the inmate moved into a fighting stance by bringing a foot forward and raising his fists. Upon video review they determined that the inmate only brought his hands up to challenge said officer and that meant he lied in his report.

HB, are you under that much scrutiny that, while being threatened to have the shit kicked out of you, you recite every explicit detail of your conduct?

"Ha!!! You didn't mention picking your nose 20 minutes prior to this incident but there goes the hand up on the video. ..."out ya' go."

Two different worlds my friend....

The answer is yes. Accidents at my workplace don't usually result in "getting the shit kicked out of you".

They usually result in death and/or dismemberment.

There was a conductor killed yesterday in the United States. Another train hit a piece of metal someone had placed on the track. The force sent it through the windshield of the locomotive and cut his head clean off.

 

[mariomike]

The answer is yes. Accidents at my workplace don't usually result in "getting the shit kicked out of you".

They usually result in death and/or dismemberment.

There was a conductor killed yesterday in the United States. Another train hit a piece of metal someone had placed on the track. The force sent it through the windshield of the locomotive and cut his head clean off.

It's a job with a lot of responsibility.

Brakeman Larry Krupa saved a lot of lives.

1979 Mississauga train derailment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jarnhamar]

Time for him to find a new line of work, IMO.

Doesn't seem to be much incentive for him to do so, and 100,000 reasons for him not to.

Being able to push over someone handcuffed in a wheel chair and kick them in the face with no reprecussions is pretty good job security.

 

[brihard]

Doesn't seem to be much incentive for him to do so, and 100,000 reasons for him not to.

Being able to push over someone handcuffed in a wheel chair and kick them in the face with no reprecussions is pretty good job security.

I can only shake my head at the criminal sentencing. That said, it remains to be seen what the internal disciplinary consequences will be.

 

[mariomike]

I don't know if it is common in Canada, but I read something about "wandering" police officers in the U.S.

That is, they get kicked out of one agency, and re-hired by another.

What happens when a police officer gets fired? Very often another police agency hires them.​

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/16/what-happens-when-police-officer-gets-fired-very-often-another-police-agency-hires-them/

There are 17,985 police agencies in the United States which include city police departments, county sheriff's offices, state troopers, and federal law enforcement agencies.

Census of State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies, 2008

Presents the results of the Census of State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies, which is conducted every four years and covers approximately 18,000 law enforcement agencies nationwide.

bjs.ojp.gov

Presents the results of the Census of State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies, which is conducted every four years and covers approximately 18,000 law enforcement agencies nationwide.

We'll always have cases like this because we have one big problem selecting police officers . . . we have to recruit from the human race.

Chief Bill Parker LAPD

 

[Jarnhamar]

I can only shake my head at the criminal sentencing. That said, it remains to be seen what the internal disciplinary consequences will be.

Unfortunately the optics of this really create an image of preferencial treatment.
The Calgary Police sound just terrible to boot.

In your experience are internal disciplinary consequences for officers generally significant?

 

[brihard]

Unfortunately the optics of this really create an image of preferencial treatment.
The Calgary Police sound just terrible to boot.

In your experience are internal disciplinary consequences for officers generally significant?

Tough to say. I’ve seen some that go “WTF?” in either direction. I’ve also seen lots of appropriate ones where the penalty (usually measured in pay) was pretty proportionate to the boneheaded action that precipitated it. Eating a disciplinary conviction can also be majorly career limiting, particularly if you have aspirations of a good investigative role that could see you having to provide significant testimony in court. A lot of good investigative units won’t take people with a conduct record. And, I’ve seen people kicked out who absolutely should be. And a few who weren’t. It’s not perfect. I do know that my organization is moving towards presumptive termination for any misconduct conviction that has what CAF would call HISB at its root, and I don’t have any issue with that. Time for certain people to smarten up or get out.

One interesting nuance is that you can get a pardon for a criminal conviction after 5-10 years, but for many police services a conduct count - even a relatively minor one - may stay on your record and impact your career options for the entirety of your career.

 

[mariomike]

, but for many police services a conduct count - even a relatively minor one - may stay on your record and impact your career options for the entirety of your career.

It stays in your jacket forever. My father and I went to Ottawa to view the files of my uncle's crew - all KIA in France after D-Day.
Every two-bit report was in there. Some real chicken-sh#t stuff. These guys joined as teenagers.

Same where I worked. You have access to and are able to view your personnel file upon request. All disciplinary notations, evaluations, and all other adverse notations are in there. And don't try removing any. There is a supervisor across the table watching for that.

 

[brihard]

It stays in your jacket forever. My father and I went to Ottawa to view the files of my uncle's crew - all KIA in France after D-Day.
Every two-bit report was in there. Some real chicken-sh#t stuff. These guys joined as teenagers.

Same where I worked. You have access to and are able to view your personnel file upon request. All disciplinary notations, evaluations, and all other adverse notations are in there. And don't try removing any. There is a supervisor across the table watching for that.

Yes, but in our case that comes with additional obligations to disclose any conduct history to crown prosecution for any future file we’re involved in ever. It’s a bit different from it staying quietly in a pers file.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Unfortunately the optics of this really create an image of preferencial treatment.
The Calgary Police sound just terrible to boot.

In your experience are internal disciplinary consequences for officers generally significant?

CPS upcoming Professional Conduct Hearings

Professional Conduct Hearings

www.calgary.ca

CPS Formal Discipline

Formal Discipline

www.calgary.ca

ALBERTA POLICE MISCONDUCT DATABASE

Alberta Police Misconduct Database

The Database is a searchable directory of incidents of police misconduct in Alberta.

www.policemisconductdatabase.ca

 

[lenaitch]

My Union self-polices its membership. We fought hard for the things we do have in our CBA and if you're a shit pump, we generally don't want you working with us.

All unions have a legal duty to represent their membership. How zealously they do that varies. I will admit some police associations aren't far off old-style Teamsters. Labour and management each have their roles, but it is often when the two are at absolute loggerheads when things bog down and get dragged out.

Yes, but in our case that comes with additional obligations to disclose any conduct history to crown prosecution for any future file we’re involved in ever. It’s a bit different from it staying quietly in a pers file.

R. vs MacNeil. Members who are listed as witnesses in court proceedings are now expected to pro-actively disclose convictions and disciplinary findings (as per the MacNeil ruling) as part of the brief to the Crown, who is supposed to vet it prior to providing disclosure to the defence. I think there is even a form or format for it in the reporting database.

 

[Booter]

I can only shake my head at the criminal sentencing. That said, it remains to be seen what the internal disciplinary consequences will be.

he won’t lose his job. It’ll get dragged out for years.

Sure we don’t “know” what will happen. But we kindve do.

Last week in Manitoba a Mountie who was using instagram to try hook up with underage girls he met at work kept his job, and the adjudicator said it wasn’t proven that brought discredit to the organization.

It should be incredibly easy to lose your job as a cop. I’m willing to go out on a limb and say we can write in two rules starting in the morning- dumping people out of wheelchairs and kicking people in the face means you lose your job. Asking girls when they turn 18 through social media after a traffic stop- you lose your job.

We’ll work from there.

 

[CBH99]

It stays in your jacket forever. My father and I went to Ottawa to view the files of my uncle's crew - all KIA in France after D-Day.
Every two-bit report was in there. Some real chicken-sh#t stuff. These guys joined as teenagers.

Same where I worked. You have access to and are able to view your personnel file upon request. All disciplinary notations, evaluations, and all other adverse notations are in there. And don't try removing any. There is a supervisor across the table watching for that.

I’m loathe to admit this…

But you guys sound like your EMS department is pretty squared away.

You can access your personnel file & view it upon request? I doubt AHS could even find my file the same day if I had asked to see it.

(I had a complaint filed against me once. A patient was convinced that we stole his sunglasses from his car…this was after he flipped his car about 5 times & anything that wasn’t bolted to the vehicle was no longer in the vehicle, including himself…)

It took HR close to 3 months to track me down & notify me.

 

[mariomike]

You can access your personnel file & view it upon request?

Article 36 – ACCESS TO PERSONAL DEPARTMENTAL FILE
36.01 Shall have access to and be able to view their individual personnel file upon request.
36.02 The City agrees to provide photocopies of all disciplinary notations, all evaluations, all performance reports and all other adverse notations upon request, within a reasonable period, at no cost to the employee, once every 12 months.
36.03 No disciplinary notation, evaluation, performance report, or other adverse notation shall be added to the personnel file until a copy of such document has been provided to the employee

I had a complaint filed against me once.

I think we all did.
"Complaint Investigation Policies and Procedures" ( CIPP )

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/9352-Toronto-Paramedic-Services-CIPP-May-25-2018.pdf

 

[Jarnhamar]

Ottawa detectives showing off their keen vision. Managed to find a loaded pistol in plain sight after uniform police searched the appartment and walked through twice without seeing it.

Ottawa police detective accused of planting handgun and stealing $50K in drug raid not showing up to face claims