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Hybrid Electric Vehicles

daftandbarmy said:
All that water... not very enviro-friendly it seems ;)


Motor Mouth: The scary business of putting out an EV fire

I now know more about fire engines than I ever thought would be necessary. For instance, did you know fire trucks and fire engines are not the same thing? An engine, as it turns out, is the vehicle that carries and pumps the water; a “truck,” on the other hand carries hardware, emergency gear, and perhaps the ladders required to reach the upper floors of tall buildings, but no water.

I also know, mainly because I couldn’t believe the numbers that I am going to spring on you, that fire engines generally hold between 500 and 1,500 gallons of water. The norm is about 750 gallons, but let’s be generous — and also avoid some difficult math down the road — and call it an even 1,000.

The reason you’re going to need that long division is that, according to an article by the International Association of Fire and Rescue Services — which quotes Austin Fire Department Division Chief Thayer Smith — it can take as many as 40,000 gallons of water to completely extinguish a roaring Tesla fire. That is — and now you see why I rounded up — equivalent to 40 fire engines. Even the lowest estimate I could find for extinguishing an EV — 8,000 gallons — would challenge any fire department, if some kind of reservoir wasn’t close by.



Motor Mouth: The scary business of putting out an EV fire
Click to expand...
Actually happen to be actively working on this at the moment, but high capacity li-ion battery fires are something else. Even a small e-bike will easily burn down a house, and cars have 100 times the battery capacity.

There is some pretty dramatic videos and FDNY has put out some more recent guidance on storage and charging of e-bikes and similar, and the CFFM has issued a similar directive for the CAF, but it's pretty dramatic.

FDNY issues warning about lithium-ion battery fires

I don't know of any Canada building code updates for having car chargers, but personnally I would look at things like a smoke heat detector in the garage (with remote alarm in the house), making sure I had a 2 hour fire break on the roof/walls/door (especially if you have bedrooms above it) and also consider a sprinkler system. Or even better, detached garage

They are actually much harder to put out then fuel fires, as they are basically self sustaining, so all you can really do is dump water on it and prevent it from spreading until it runs out of steam.

We're actually looking at a foam replacement from a Canadian company, and specifically to be a more efficient heat soak for this kind of fire, but still early days. Cautiously optimistic though, and even if it doesn't put it out, using less water would be a really big deal.

But if you see one go up in a parking lot, it will take out any car parked near it as well, so glad parking garages have sprinklers. Sucks for outdoor lots though; by the time trucks get there it's too late, and they just do their best to contain it. An EV caught fire in a local parking lot a few years ago on a hot day, and took out half a row, melted the ashphalt and was hot enough they were cooling down nearby buildings.

Edit: clarified heat vs smoke alarm for garage, as well as remote alarm for inside the house (fire divisions are also pretty good sound barriers). Actually really easy now with wireless systems.
 
Another tragedy of the commons ....

Another reason to ban e-scooters and bikes and other communal vehicles.

www.smartcitiesdive.com

E-scooter bans, restrictions can leave some riders behind

Micromobility companies like Lime and Bird urge cities to think beyond “blunt” policies that ban e-scooters.
www.smartcitiesdive.com www.smartcitiesdive.com

www.dailymail.co.uk

Paris becomes first city in the world to ban e-scooters in referendum

In a move likely to be studied with huge interest in the UK, the French capital rejected the controversial scooters by a 90 per cent majority in a referendum on Sunday.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

 
People seem to misunderstand EV fires. They are not like the conventional fire where if you remove 1 leg of the fire triangle the fire goes out. In an EV battery fire the fire is not the primary problem and usually cannot be extinguished until the primary problem is solved. The primary problem with battery fires is the large amount of stored energy leaving the battery in a rather uncontrolled manner. When it does so it creates a massive amount of heat which starts everything around it that is flammable on fire. Until the battery is discharged (or the cells stop shorting out which is unlikely once a fire has been ignited by the heat since most battery casings will burn at some point) it is nearly impossible to stop the fire. Dry chemical won't work, CO may knock it down temporarily but all that really can be done is to try to cool it and the surrounding area with lots of water or dump a really large quantity of sand on it to smother the fire until the energy dump is done. Take a look at that E-bus fire in Paris or the damage done to the bus barns that were burnt to the ground in Germany. It is terrifying.

Because of where I work I have to recertify my fire fighting training every year. I hate electrical fires but at least at work we can cool the area as required while the electricians isolate the power source which solves the problem and then we put out the fire. EVs not so much.

As for the E-scooters I say good riddance. In Edmonton they were supposed to be the solution for everyone's green transportation. In reality the rental E-scooters were dumped anywhere it was convenient such as in the middle of the street, on peoples lawns, in parks etc. Finally even our ultra left wing mayor had enough and got rid of them.
 
KJK said:
People seem to misunderstand EV fires. They are not like the conventional fire where if you remove 1 leg of the fire triangle the fire goes out. In an EV battery fire the fire is not the primary problem and usually cannot be extinguished until the primary problem is solved. The primary problem with battery fires is the large amount of stored energy leaving the battery in a rather uncontrolled manner. When it does so it creates a massive amount of heat which starts everything around it that is flammable on fire. Until the battery is discharged (or the cells stop shorting out which is unlikely once a fire has been ignited by the heat since most battery casings will burn at some point) it is nearly impossible to stop the fire. Dry chemical won't work, CO may knock it down temporarily but all that really can be done is to try to cool it and the surrounding area with lots of water or dump a really large quantity of sand on it to smother the fire until the energy dump is done. Take a look at that E-bus fire in Paris or the damage done to the bus barns that were burnt to the ground in Germany. It is terrifying.

Because of where I work I have to recertify my fire fighting training every year. I hate electrical fires but at least at work we can cool the area as required while the electricians isolate the power source which solves the problem and then we put out the fire. EVs not so much.

As for the E-scooters I say good riddance. In Edmonton they were supposed to be the solution for everyone's green transportation. In reality the rental E-scooters were dumped anywhere it was convenient such as in the middle of the street, on peoples lawns, in parks etc. Finally even our ultra left wing mayor had enough and got rid of them.
Click to expand...
Careful, your social credit score may suffer if you spread unplatitudes counter to the PM’s convict minister’s militant environmentalist plans… 😳
 
KJK said:
As for the E-scooters I say good riddance. In Edmonton they were supposed to be the solution for everyone's green transportation. In reality the rental E-scooters were dumped anywhere it was convenient such as in the middle of the street, on peoples lawns, in parks etc. Finally even our ultra left wing mayor had enough and got rid of them.
Click to expand...
Not to mention the assholes that ride them on sidewalks and walking trails.

E Bikes? Hey fatty stop the e biking and pedal the damn thing.
 
Navy_Pete said:
I don't know of any Canada building code updates for having car chargers
Click to expand...
The Ontario Liberal government added it to building Code regulations but the current Conservatives dropped it.

Navy_Pete said:
so glad parking garages have sprinklers.
Click to expand...

According to this article, sprinkler systems (at least EU standard ones, it seems) can't extinguish them but can contain them. That would leave the fire crew to attack it in an enclosed space. Lovely. I have heard that some condo boards and/or their insurers, are not allowing EV parking. An allied problem is the drainage system isn't designed to handle the large amount of water needed.

For an EV fire on the side of a rural road covered by a volunteer department, I foresee a lot of BOB ('being observed').
 
OldSolduer said:
Not to mention the assholes that ride them on sidewalks and walking trails.

E Bikes? Hey fatty stop the e biking and pedal the damn thing.
Click to expand...
I don't know why it is but we seem to have more of these things per capita than anyplace else on the planet. I am long out of the enforcement regulations but quite frankly I can't keep track of them. Mopeds, mobility devices, e-bikes where you have to pedal, e-bikes where you don't, and on and on. We have a couple of 'mobility devices' that are totally enclosed 4-wheeled vehicles. Some you can ride on trails and sidewalks, some you can't. The scary part is no licence or training required, so we get these numptys riding down the right side of the roadway then turn left in front of you without even looking.
 
lenaitch said:
The scary part is no licence or training required, so we get these numptys riding down the right side of the roadway then turn left in front of you without even looking.
Click to expand...

No driver / vehicle license. No insurance.

Wouldn't count on them remaining on scene of a pedestrian struck .

Imagine fighting a electric vehicle fire. Now imagine it's connected to an active power supply. Add in that it's in a garage and that there are people living right above it all.
 
My biggest concern with EVs and their batteries is that through out history Mankind learns most its lessons through death, pain and suffering. It has taken us 140 years to get ICE cars to the safety levels that they are at now. We have done this because of the sheer number of people dead and maimed over the years. I shudder to think of what the butcher's bill will be for EVs. This is particularly bad when there isn't any good reason to replace the ICE vehicles in the first place and the EVs can't do even 10% of what the ICEs can.

I was watching a video about the Chinese manufactured EVs that are causing carnage on their roads right now. The worst part is that it isn't just the cheap ones burning up, even the expensive ones seem to be prone to burning with no notice. Like lenaitch said how many houses, apartment building, condos etc are going to burn down from charger/battery malfunctions in their parking areas. I personally wouldn't have an EV parked in/charging in a structure where my family and I live. The risk is just too high.
 
KJK said:
My biggest concern with EVs and their batteries is that through out history Mankind learns most its lessons through death, pain and suffering. It has taken us 140 years to get ICE cars to the safety levels that they are at now. We have done this because of the sheer number of people dead and maimed over the years. I shudder to think of what the butcher's bill will be for EVs. This is particularly bad when there isn't any good reason to replace the ICE vehicles in the first place and the EVs can't do even 10% of what the ICEs can.

I was watching a video about the Chinese manufactured EVs that are causing carnage on their roads right now. The worst part is that it isn't just the cheap ones burning up, even the expensive ones seem to be prone to burning with no notice. Like lenaitch said how many houses, apartment building, condos etc are going to burn down from charger/battery malfunctions in their parking areas. I personally wouldn't have an EV parked in/charging in a structure where my family and I live. The risk is just too high.
Click to expand...
Some valid points but the learning curve won't be near as comparable. Most of the "death, pain and suffering" came from the action and interaction of the individual platforms, not their power source.
 
For all the bitching we do, all of these problems will be self-correcting. I concede it's possible that the people pushing changes have done the math and done a lot of Bastiat's "seen" and "unseen" thinking. However, I see no evidence of it.

No assumptions should be made about how future technology will be more effective; that would be assuming away part of the problem. All the estimates and plans must be done based on current technology and legislation and, therefore, costs.

The first problem is: how much additional electrical energy must be on-line to meet the demand of whatever target(s) are set? (Roughly just an arithmetical estimate based on energy use of the predicted fleet size.) That drives an estimate for new infrastructure. In the case of intermittent renewables, it also drives an estimate of how large the on-demand capacity must be to back up the intermittent capacity. Then calculate the time and cost. I suspect the "time box" alone (which has legislative/regulatory constraints independent of costs) would show that the capacity can't be available before it is needed. So the "experts" need to explain what legislation they propose to shorten implementation times.

Is any of that really happening? Could the relevant ministers stand up in the House and explain in 5 minutes the bones of a concept of operations? I think not. More likely is that they are doing essentially what they always do (eg. health care, dental care, child care) - declare/create a demand, and ignore any responsibility to ensure supply will meet it.

So something is going to break, and if some future politicians won't cast aside today's dreams, some future citizens will take matters into their own hands, at best ignoring the mandarins, and at worst breaking them.
 
The ICE-Death Day will be postponed multiple times until the politicians gives up…
 
Meanwhile, there's a new gold rush in California....

'Lithium Valley' may provide California with its next gold rush​


The auto industry is introducing fleets of electric vehicles that will be powered by lithium-ion batteries and while the U.S. has massive quantities of lithium locked underground, companies have been slow to invest in mining and extraction.

That's about to change. Lithium operations powered by clean energy are being developed in California, near the Salton Sea. Just like California's 1849 Gold Rush, companies are racing to strike it rich in a region some are now calling Lithium Valley.

Eric Spomer is president and CEO of EnergySource Minerals, a company focused on recovering lithium from the region's geothermal brine.

"When you hear estimates of how big this resource could be, it's usually measured on annual tons produced. And we're confident that this is in excess of 300,000 tons a year," said Spomer. "Right now, that's way more than half of the world supply of lithium."

EnergySource Minerals is steaming ahead with plans to build a lithium facility, which Spomer said could be ready for commercial use by 2025.





www.cbsnews.com

'Lithium Valley' may provide California with its next gold rush

As demand for electric vehicles grows, companies are racing to develop what's being called Lithium Valley in California, with plans to extract the metal to power batteries.
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com
 
They will be producing in 2025 whilst we will still be having environmental assessment hearings for the mining in Ontario. Another opportunity squandered.....
 
YZT580 said:
They will be producing in 2025 whilst we will still be having environmental assessment hearings for the mining in Ontario. Another opportunity squandered.....
Click to expand...

And the Yanks are outperforming everyone...


The lessons from America’s astonishing economic record​

The world’s biggest economy is leaving its peers ever further in the dust​

If there is one thing that Americans of all political stripes can agree on, it is that the economy is broken. Donald Trump, who saw trade as a rip-off and his country in decline, came into office promising to make America great again. President Joe Biden is spending $2trn remaking the economy, hoping to build it back better. Americans are worried. Nearly four-fifths tell pollsters that their children will be worse off than they are, the most since the survey began in 1990, when only about two-fifths were as gloomy. The last time so many thought the economy was in such terrible shape, it was in the throes of the global financial crisis. Yet the anxiety obscures a stunning success story—one of enduring but underappreciated outperformance. America remains the world’s richest, most productive and most innovative big economy. By an impressive number of measures, it is leaving its peers ever further in the dust.
Start with the familiar measure of economic success: gdp. In 1990 America accounted for a quarter of the world’s output, at market exchange rates. Thirty years on, that share is almost unchanged, even as China has gained economic clout. America’s dominance of the rich world is startling. Today it accounts for 58% of the g7’s gdp, compared with 40% in 1990. Adjusted for purchasing power, only those in über-rich petrostates and financial hubs enjoy a higher income per person. Average incomes have grown much faster than in western Europe or Japan. Also adjusted for purchasing power, they exceed $50,000 in Mississippi, America’s poorest state—higher than in France.

The record is as impressive for many of the ingredients of growth. America has nearly a third more workers than in 1990, compared with a tenth in western Europe and Japan. And, perhaps surprisingly, more of them have graduate and postgraduate degrees. True, Americans work more hours on average than Europeans and the Japanese. But they are significantly more productive than both.

American firms own more than a fifth of patents registered abroad, more than China and Germany put together. All of the five biggest corporate sources of research and development(R&D) are American; in the past year they have spent $200bn. Consumers everywhere have benefited from their innovations in everything from the laptop and the iPhone to artificial-intelligence chatbots. Investors who put $100 into the s&p 500 in 1990 would have more than $2,000 today, four times what they would have earned had they invested elsewhere in the rich world.

One retort to this could be that Americans trade higher incomes for less generous safety-nets. America’s spending on social benefits, as a share of gdp, is indeed a great deal stingier than other countries’. But those benefits have become more European and, as the economy has grown, they have grown even faster. Tax credits for workers and children have become more generous. Health insurance for the poorest has expanded, notably under President Barack Obama. In 1979 means-tested benefits amounted to a third of the poorest Americans’ pre-tax income; by 2019 these came to two-thirds. Thanks to this, incomes for America’s poorest fifth have risen in real terms by 74% since 1990, much more than in Britain.

For the world as a whole, America’s outperformance says much about how to grow. One lesson is that size matters. America has the benefit of a large consumer market over which to spread the costs of R&D, and a deep capital market from which to raise finance. Only China, and perhaps one day India, can boast of purchasing power at such scale. Other countries have sought to mimic it. But even those in Europe, which have got the closest, have struggled to become a true single market. Differences in bankruptcy laws and contractual terms, together with a variety of regulatory barriers, prevent bankers, accountants and architects from touting services across borders.

The size and the quality of the workforce matters, too. America was blessed with a younger population and a higher fertility rate than other rich countries. That may not be easily remedied elsewhere, but countries can at least take inspiration from America’s high share of immigrants, who in 2021 made up 17% of its workforce, compared with less than 3% in ageing Japan.

Another lesson is the value of dynamism. Starting a business is easy in America, as is restructuring it through bankruptcy. The flexibility of the labour market helps employment adapt to shifting patterns of demand. Already many of the workers in America who were laid off from Alphabet and other tech firms at the start of the year are applying their sought-after skills elsewhere, or setting up their own businesses. In continental Europe, by contrast, tech firms are still negotiating lay-offs, and may think twice about hiring there in future.

Americans should find the economy’s performance reassuring. If history is a guide, living standards will continue to go up for the next generation, even as the country bears the costs of decarbonising the economy. Yet, resilient as the growth record has been, there are shadows. The middle class has seen its post-tax incomes rise by less than those of both the poorest and the richest. A group of people have fallen into hard times. The share of prime-age American men who are not in work has been rising for years and is higher than in Britain, France and Germany. And life expectancy in America lags shamefully behind others in the rich world, mainly on account of too many younger people dying from drug overdoses and gun violence. Tackling such problems should be easier when the economy as a whole is growing. But America’s poisonous politics are no help.

In addition, the more that Americans think their economy is a problem in need of fixing, the more likely their politicians are to mess up the next 30 years. Although America’s openness brought prosperity for its firms and its consumers, both Mr Trump and Mr Biden have turned to protectionism and the politics of immigration have become toxic. Subsidies could boost investment in deprived areas in the short term, but risk dulling market incentives to innovate. In the long run they will also entrench wasteful and distorting lobbying. The rise of China and the need to fight climate change both confront America with fresh challenges. All the more reason, then, to remember what has powered its long and successful run. ■



The lessons from America’s astonishing economic record
 
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