Infantry of Tomorrow

[OldSolduer]

Can't say that the name rings a bell. Who and where was he?

Maybe after your time. He was the RSM when I got back in in 2003.

He was a 106 guy

 

[FJAG]

Maybe after your time. He was the RSM when I got back in in 2003.

He was a 106 guy

Yup after my time. I was there 81-85 (but mostly 81 and 82 - after that I worked mostly out of MilArea Prairie and AJAG Praire [part-time] until I transferred to the JAG PRL)

 

[Kirkhill]

So how long is it going to train these max-flex super troopers in the use of all the arms in the locker, and their ad hoc situational employment? Not to mention when operating with or without vehicles of various types?

Is there a route to convert civilians into useful soldiers that doesn't involve them making a career of it?

The "rifles and guns" section trained in the use of grenades, claymores and single-shot weapons (M72, AT4, NLAW etc) had the advantage of simplicity and speed in training.

The specialists were all grouped in dedicated platoons (Mortars, Anti-Tank, Anti-Air, MGs, Pioneers, Recce, Patrol, Snipers, Motor Transport, Sigs, QM A, QM B etc und so weiter).

The Weapons Dets with the SF trained gunners, the 60 mm mortar and the CG84 made for a useful stepping stone from the "rifles and guns" to the specialists and gave both the Platoon Leader and Coy OC something useful to start operating with.

The specialists were the Battalion CO's assets.

About the only changes that I would be looking at are combining the Anti-Air and MG platoons into a C-UAS platoon armed with a 30mm RWS and DEW systems, as well as general distribution of UAVs and LAMs universally. If you were issued binoculars you get a UAV.

I would say the current regular Infantry and Armor trades can do that.


Those are the Maneuver units outside the sensor conflict.

Your missing shifts in warfare if you think those troops will be useful in a LSCO sensor battle.

Groups like they mean mass, and mass means a fires target inside the enemy sensor zone.

Still doesn’t do anything for C-RAM which is the issue inside enemy sensor zones.

I imagine the man has not been in an IFV doing a stab run with a driver and gunner who only graduated DP1/RQIP 3-5 months prior, and a crew commander who just finished PLQ and ISCC (and he himself only has been in battalion for 4-6 years at this point) before.


The rifle section has already been an arms locker for the past 20-30 years as far as the doctrine and the experiences of the NCOs that have taught me view it: every private coming off of BIQ/DP1/RQIP (or whatever else we want to call it now) for the past two decades has been qualified on the following weapon systems: Pistol (HP or C22), C7 (to include the use of a LAD and NVG), C9 (to include the use of thermal and night sights), C6 LR (to include the use of thermal and night sights), M203, C13/C13A1, SRAAW-L, SRAAW-M, and C19 CDDW.

That's not including all the remaining STANO and communications equipment they have to qualify with on course, along with patrolling, offensive, defensive and enabling operations modules (to include doing all of which in urban areas). Followed by field firing, rappelling and CQC-B.

And despite all of the above, having worked with the British and Australian training establishments, we have the most watered down base line infanteer qualification syllabus in the Commonwealth (not a feat to relish in) and for some stupid reason, despite the recommendations of the RQIP QSTP writing board and the Infantry School: the reservist inf bn command teams want the course to be even shorter even with the massive training delta the reservist infanteer already has.

The issue isn't the civilian joining the infantry corps, they handle the course content just fine on average so adding another 2-3 weapon systems is hardly a monumental feat for them. The issue (as it always has been) is passing off the buck to battalion to finish off the initial training of the soldier; where the soldier should show up to battalion with the ensemble of skills required to be further refined and given advanced skills (actual advanced skills, not qualifications on fundamental equipment and weapons that should've been on DP1 in the first place).


100%, and thankfully there is a project or two focusing on LF mobility - just would be cool if there were more airlift to move the battalion and that future capability around.

The fundamental soldier skills of those in the Bn has atrophied massively. The individual skills that are lacking are clearly seen as absent during the collective training now.
It’s too the point in some areas where people don’t even know they don’t know.

However it’s not just the Cdn Army. A lot of Armies seem to be having the same problem.

After getting rid of SQ/BMQ-A for support trades you would be surprised how few inside the field Army have done those things.

I'll dump on CFSCE all day long but this is not a situation of their making. They are doing the best they can in this circumstance. But it is ridiculous they have been put in it.

How is more efficient to have "soldier skills" instructors and equipment to support that training at CFSCE, CFSAL, whatever the RCEME school is called, etc, etc, etc...than having a couple of centralized places (Centres of Excellence one might say) that take care of this training? The pers that CFSCE and, presumably, each other school has REOed should be sent to the training centres and told to run more SQs.

CFSCE (and again, the other learning institutions in the Army are probably in the same boat) is a complex beast with a lot it needs to do and not enough people to do those things. It should concentrate on technical training. That is it's remit. SQ/BMQ-A is really just BMQ mod 2 for Army pers. The Army should take care of it before pers are handed of to their respective trade schools.

We are not training pers to be soldiers anymore, they lack the fundamental skills they need act as soldiers (this has been a long time coming, I am not saying my training made me a super soldier). We are doing these pers a disservice, especially as the old global order breaks down. A fight is coming and our subordinates (both present and future) don't have the tools to protect themselves. Trying to make up that delta by giving them those tools at the trade schools is an inefficient and dumb way to fix that delta.

I honestly don't know what the solution is. We can only train pers for so long. A Pte that takes 2 years to become qualified is not useful to anyone during that time. So I get there will need to be a balance where the people the IT pushes out are "good enough". Otherwise mission creep will keep them in the training system forever. Right now, however, I don't think we have the proper balance.

Which all brings me back to my original point.

Taking two years to train a soldier is not going to raise us an effective army.

IRepoCans is not wrong about the weapons that rifle section was and is required to know. My father's 1945 paybook didn't look that much different than my own Militia PERs - Browning HP, SMG (Sterling vs Sten), Rifle (FNC1A1 vs Lee Enfield Mk V), LMG (FNC2A1 vs Bren), throw a grenade, fire an M72 instead of a PIAT. I was familiarized with the CG-84 and the TOW but never fired either one. I did fire the 60 in hand held mode. I hand no training on the Browning C3 MMG.

The old man covered his basic weapons quals in under three months. (Age 18 - he had previously fired all those weapons as an Army Cadet Age 16 or so). He then volunteered for a regiment that insisted on throwing him out aeroplanes for a year and a half before allowing him a decent Christmas Dinner then packing him off to the Holy Land at age 20 to keep the Jews and Arabs apart.

Dad's birthday was the 27 of July 1927. He turned 18 after VE Day (May 8th) and just before VJ Day (Aug 15th). He got his call up papers in the mail just after VJ Day. The British Army was already in full demob role. They had the luxury of more bodies than tasks. Had he be born 3 months earlier it is entirely likely that his training would have ended after three months and he would have found himself somewhere on the Rhine or the Irriwaddy.

....

In my mind there are two halves to this equation

The ability of people to be trained in a timely manner
The ability of the army to effectively manage the people and skills they have available to them in a timely manner.

It is as much about the army managing expectations as it is about turning out max-flex commandos.

....

They also serve who only stand and wait.

 

[KevinB]

....

In my mind there are two halves to this equation

The ability of people to be trained in a timely manner

A Peacetime Army is vastly different than a global conflict army. in peacetime there is the luxury of time to get a good plated individual training package - that makes a well rounded soldier -- but even now, that "well rounded" needs to be somewhat of a specialist, as there are simply too many tasks to become a master of.
Historically the Peacetime Army becomes the backbone of a rapidly expanded war time army, however today the ability to create munitions and material is a major pinch point - there is not much point in expanding personal availability beyond that of materials.

Canada isn't Europe, it has no real hostile threats (no I do not see the 47 Annexation blathering as credible) to its borders - and so the homeward aspect that many European nations have it's a useful method.

The ability of the army to effectively manage the people and skills they have available to them in a timely manner.

It is as much about the army managing expectations as it is about turning out max-flex commandos.

CAF GPF Individual training isn't making anyone a "Max-flex Commando" you seem to be mistaking basic skills with highly specialized training.

....

They also serve who only stand and wait.

Again I think you are missing the reality of the 21st Century and Canada's geography.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Canada isn't Europe, it has no real hostile threats (no I do not see the 47 Annexation blathering as credible) to its borders - and so the homeward aspect that many European nations have it's a useful method.

Dude... I hope that isn't on your phone so they can 'ICE' you at the border

 

[Kirkhill]

I have pitched something like this before - gonna try again.

@daftandbarmy recently suggested the value of an MG platoon and noted the value of the M2 and C16 in addition to the C6/GPMG-SF.

I'm stretching a point. Rather than the simple M2 or C16 I am proposing this with a XM914 30x113 mm Bushmaster.

Preferably with this operational mode. If it works on an M2, and is cheap enough for the Ukrainians to be able to afford it then it should be an option for all turrets. Safe-Single-Auto-AI.

Ukraine Develops AI-Run Turret to Take Down Erratic Shahed Drones

A team of Ukrainian engineers has developed an AI-controlled air defense turret to down unpredictable attack drones and low-flying cruise missiles.

thedefensepost.com

View attachment 93896

Ukraine has created an AI turret called Sky Sentinel to protect against Russian missiles and drones

The Ukrainian autonomous Sky Sentinel turret is controlled by artificial intelligence. It has successfully passed tests and has already been used on the front.

mezha.media

This in particular seems easily do-able even now, United24 has a fundraiser going to raise $1,500,000 USD for 10 systems. So $150,000 a piece assuming there isn't a discount for Ukraine.

Sky Sentinel: fundraiser for peaceful nights

We’re raising $1,500,000 for 10 AI-controlled air defense turrets that will protect Ukrainians from russian attacks.

u24.gov.ua

At that rate I would love to see half-a-dozen in every infantry company.

We could follow on from the old 2 pdr

View attachment 93899View attachment 93900View attachment 93901

Something that can be dragged by hand, towed by MRZR, dismounted, carried on the back of a pick-up.
Maybe up armed with something in the 30x113 range.

And, perhaps a couple of Vampires?

And VAMPIRE is still part of the current solution

US Supports European Allies With Additional VAMPIRE Anti-Drone Order

The US contracted L3Harris for additional Vehicle Agnostic Modular Palletized ISR Rocket Equipment (VAMPIRE) to support European operations.

thedefensepost.com

All of these are primarily Anti-Aircraft/C-UAS systems but, like the Oerlikons at Goose Green, equally effective in direct fire roles against a variety of ground targets.

Sky Sentinel - 150 KUSD with an M2 at 15-20 KUSD
XM914 30x113 ~ 250 KUSD
Trailer?

For reference pricing -

Javelin Missile (Single Shot) 2021 - 216,717 USD plus 249,700 USD for the CLU(LW)

Javelin Missile | British Army Javelin Cost, Range, Weight Specs

www.defenseadvancement.com

NLAW Missile - somewhere in the 25-40 KUSD range.

 

[KevinB]

I have pitched something like this before - gonna try again.

@daftandbarmy recently suggested the value of an MG platoon and noted the value of the M2 and C16 in addition to the C6/GPMG-SF.

I'm stretching a point. Rather than the simple M2 or C16 I am proposing this with a XM914 30x113 mm Bushmaster.


And, perhaps a couple of Vampires?


All of these are primarily Anti-Aircraft/C-UAS systems but, like the Oerlikons at Goose Green, equally effective in direct fire roles against a variety of ground targets.

Sky Sentinel - 150 KUSD with an M2 at 15-20 KUSD
XM914 30x113 ~ 250 KUSD
Trailer?

For reference pricing -

Javelin Missile (Single Shot) 2021 - 216,717 USD plus 249,700 USD for the CLU(LW)

Javelin Missile | British Army Javelin Cost, Range, Weight Specs

www.defenseadvancement.com

NLAW Missile - somewhere in the 25-40 KUSD range.

I have zero idea how you feel these are Infantry weapons - other than the NLAW which is basically a turd.

 

[Kirkhill]

I thought the RM were infantry.

Royal Marines Trial Can-Am 6x6 ATV For Mortars | Joint Forces News

Royal Marines from 45 Commando have been trialling Can-Am OUTLANDER MAX 6x6 all-terrain vehicles in the mortar transport role.

www.joint-forces.com

 

[daftandbarmy]

I thought the RM were infantry.

Fun fact: If you tell a Royal Marine they are 'just Infantry' you can start a fight pretty quick.

Some of them get it, of course, others... not so much

 

[dapaterson]

Fun fact: If you tell a Royal Marine they are 'just Infantry' you can start a fight pretty quick.

Some of them get it, of course, others... not so much

The greatest Royal Marine ever is A/Maj Bill Martin.

 

[KevinB]

View attachment 93912
I thought the RM were infantry.

Royal Marines Trial Can-Am 6x6 ATV For Mortars | Joint Forces News

Royal Marines from 45 Commando have been trialling Can-Am OUTLANDER MAX 6x6 all-terrain vehicles in the mortar transport role.

www.joint-forces.com

I must have missed when those AD weapons you posted before got included in RM Battalions Cbt Spt

 

[daftandbarmy]

The greatest Royal Marine ever is A/Maj Bill Martin.

RIP

 

[dapaterson]

RIP

View attachment 93913

 

[Kirkhill]

I must have missed when those AD weapons you posted before got included in RM Battalions Cbt Spt

I figure if it can be drug by an Infantry Squad Vehicle then it qualifies as an Infantry weapon.

 

[KevinB]

I figure if it can be drug by an Infantry Squad Vehicle then it qualifies as an Infantry weapon.

Which then ignores all the sustainment and integration issues.