Informing the Army’s Future Structure - CAMO Discussion

[Kirkhill]

In the west, Shilo, Wainwright, Suffield. Dundurn is too small and the Chilcotin has no base, just an RTA.

It would be interesting to look at how a Ukrainian style defending company would fare in those areas and what sort of force it would take to overwhelm them.

This assumes tank traps, tanglefoot, trenches and bunkers, dragon's teeth, drones and lots of long range artillery.

And how do you bring the artillery into play? How does the attacking force defeat cannons that are 30 km away and rockets that are well beyond 100 km?

 

[Blackadder1916]

What bases can support a no man's land 10 to 20 km wide?

Like many of your thoughts/ideas/theories/flightsoffantasy, I'm left speculating what you're talking about. Perhaps your expectation is that it would be necessary to physically recreate two opposing 'trenchlines' down to the exact detail as would be found in, say, Eastern Ukraine, so that troops can play silly buggers at the division level? Other than having space to do live fire, which would not likely go beyond a battle group (battalion), it would not require anymore than what was needed for the exercising of formations during the Cold War. Space in which nothing happens (other than transit of troops, eqpt or munitions on the way to a target) can be simulated. If space is needed to exercise wide ranging tactical and administrative movement of units/formations (and that it necessary - more than it used to be practiced in Canada), it can be accomplished the same way we did it back when we hitched onions to our belts and prepared to oppose Warsaw Pact forces - in Requisitioned Manoeuvre Areas (RMAs), i.e., the German countryside.

Or are you suggesting a Canadian version of Fort Irwin? And even then, some spaces can be simulated.

 

[Kirkhill]

Like many of your thoughts/ideas/theories/flightsoffantasy, I'm left speculating what you're talking about. Perhaps your expectation is that it would be necessary to physically recreate two opposing 'trenchlines' down to the exact detail as would be found in, say, Eastern Ukraine, so that troops can play silly buggers at the division level? Other than having space to do live fire, which would not likely go beyond a battle group (battalion), it would not require anymore than what was needed for the exercising of formations during the Cold War. Space in which nothing happens (other than transit of troops, eqpt or munitions on the way to a target) can be simulated. If space is needed to exercise wide ranging tactical and administrative movement of units/formations (and that it necessary - more than it used to be practiced in Canada), it can be accomplished the same way we did it back when we hitched onions to our belts and prepared to oppose Warsaw Pact forces - in Requisitioned Manoeuvre Areas (RMAs), i.e., the German countryside.

Or are you suggesting a Canadian version of Fort Irwin? And even then, some spaces can be simulated.

I suppose you could have one battlegroup at Wainwright and another at Shilo.

One exercise assaulting a trenchline backed by "off-board" assets at the other site while the other site practices supporting the defence remotely while trying to defend itself against incoming missiles and drones and escape surveillance.

Imagination is a wonderful thing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I suppose you could have one battlegroup at Wainwright and another at Shilo.

One exercise assaulting a trenchline backed by "off-board" assets at the other site while the other site practices supporting the defence remotely while trying to defend itself against incoming missiles and drones and escape surveillance.

Imagination is a wonderful thing.

You've just used up the entire budget for the year... thanks alot

 

[Kirkhill]

You've just used up the entire budget for the year... thanks alot

Ah what the hell. I can't take it with me. The taxman might as well give it to DND.

 

[daftandbarmy]

One can only hope that with the 1 and 2 Div restructure, an adequate amount of full-time personnel will be directed into 2 Div. If not then all my thoughts about the lack of vision of army planners will be borne out.

Well, now that they've created a 'Leper Colony' at least the Reg F will be able to ensure good behaviour in Manoevre Div by threatening the bad performers with a posting to the Sin Bin/ Continental Div.

That was often the case in the British Army, where there's never been any attempt to integrate Reg and Reserve in the ways that Canada has done (up until now anyways), and the '2nd Eleven' would get the TA postings.

 

[FJAG]

Well, now that they've created a 'Leper Colony' at least the Reg F will be able to ensure good behaviour in Manoevre Div by threatening the bad performers with a posting to the Sin Bin/ Continental Div.

That was often the case in the British Army, where there's never been any attempt to integrate Reg and Reserve in the ways that Canada has done (up until now anyways), and the '2nd Eleven' would get the TA postings.

Yeah. It's Déjà vu all over again - it won't be log before they call them MilAreas and MilDists again. Or worse, right back to the late 1960s with the Militia divided into those units earmarked as augmenting the RegF and those relegated to the Snakes and Ladders dregs.

I detest the entire structure. It's a stillborn outgrowth of the army's fetish at being consumed with their need to control their day-to-day force generation roto needs for expeditionary missions rather than creating a superior mobilization strategy that concurrently can force generate rotos. I expect there will be lots of room for Class B jobs in 2 Div which will lead to a continuation of the capbility death spiral.

 

[CBH99]

One can only hope that with the 1 and 2 Div restructure, an adequate amount of full-time personnel will be directed into 2 Div. If not then all my thoughts about the lack of vision of army planners will be borne out.

Just wondering as I have absolutely no details or insights into this 1 and 2 Div restructure - but is the idea something along the lines of 1 CAD and 2 CAD??

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Just wondering as I have absolutely no details or insights into this 1 and 2 Div restructure - but is the idea something along the lines of 1 CAD and 2 CAD??

No.

 

[Ostrozac]

I detest the entire structure. It's a stillborn outgrowth of the army's fetish at being consumed with their need to control their day-to-day force generation roto needs for expeditionary missions rather than creating a superior mobilization strategy that concurrently can force generate rotos. I expect there will be lots of room for Class B jobs in 2 Div which will lead to a continuation of the capbility death spiral.

There are certainly some odd things about the new army structure. One clear takeaway is that the Regular Army hates domestic operations so much that they are willing to devote enormous effort to a 2nd Division that will be only capable of the 3 F’s: Fires, Floods, and Fixing bayonets for ceremonies.

I mean, someone clearly had a bad experience with domestic operations. Show me where Canada Command hurt you…

 

[FJAG]

There are certainly some odd things about the new army structure. One clear takeaway is that the Regular Army hates domestic operations so much that they are willing to devote enormous effort to a 2nd Division that will be only capable of the 3 F’s: Fires, Floods, and Fixing bayonets for ceremonies.

I mean, someone clearly had a bad experience with domestic operations. Show me where Canada Command hurt you…

This is far from a recent thing. The disdain of the regular force for the reserve force goes back almost to when the permananet active militia was formed.

… any discussion about Canadian martial enthusiasm would be incomplete if it fails to note the embittered relations that existed between the Active Militia [army reserve] and the Permanent Force [regular force], the full-time instructional cadre that had been established in the 1870s and 1880s. Since then the Permanent Force had come to regard itself, not as instructors, for the militia but, rather, as the nucleus of a regular army.[1]

---

[1] James Wood, Militia Myths: Ideas of the Canadian Citizen Soldier, 1896-1921, (Vancouver: UBC Press, 2010), 57-58.

Relegating the reserves to stuff the regular force doesn't like and which it thinks interferes with its preparation for combat is a thing. It's closely tied to the concept of dealing primarily with today's issues rather than properly preparing for tomorrow's major needs.

 

[McG]

I read somewhere the other day in the event of mobilization, 2 Div (defense of canada) would be split in 3, each around 8-10k, forming the core of the force, recruitment and training would then commence to fill it out to full strength. Which makes for a solid plan in theory for a west, central and eastern div in the event of war. Giving us 4 div's, commanded by hypothetically 1 Canadian Army HQ (but this is just me speculating out loud)

Four divisions without Corps Troops is not a serious mobilization plan.

 

[MilEME09]

Four divisions without Corps Troops is not a serious mobilization plan.

exactly why 2 div would form the back bone, as it stands 2 div will have a significant regular force element once at full fruition, complete battle schools, admin coys etc, again this is all dependent on the plan actually being executed

 

[FJAG]

exactly why 2 div would form the back bone, as it stands 2 div will have a significant regular force element once at full fruition, complete battle schools, admin coys etc, again this is all dependent on the plan actually being executed

My problem is that the plan is not obvious from square 1.

2 Div appears to be either a poor end product or an undefined holding pattern for something that hasn't been invented yet. When I look at para 15 of the CAMO I see a capability wish list but not a focussed plan nor even a hint of a vision.

 

[MilEME09]

My problem is that the plan is not obvious from square 1.

2 Div appears to be either a poor end product or an undefined holding pattern for something that hasn't been invented yet. When I look at para 15 of the CAMO I see a capability wish list but not a focussed plan nor even a hint of a vision.

Read as, reserves are an after thought still

 

[PrairieFella]

Read as, reserves are an after thought still

Always have been lol

 

[FJAG]

Always have been lol

Not prior to the start of the Cold WAar.

 

[PrairieFella]

Not prior to the start of the Cold WAar.

Most of us dont wear onions in our belts, as was the fashion of the time FJAG.

 

[FJAG]

Most of us dont wear onions in our belts, as was the fashion of the time FJAG.

"Proudly" wear onions on our belts!

 

[PuckChaser]

There are certainly some odd things about the new army structure. One clear takeaway is that the Regular Army hates domestic operations so much that they are willing to devote enormous effort to a 2nd Division that will be only capable of the 3 F’s: Fires, Floods, and Fixing bayonets for ceremonies.

I mean, someone clearly had a bad experience with domestic operations. Show me where Canada Command hurt you…

Would you rather the PRes exist in a vacuum with no real task? They thumb their nose at being an augmentation force, didn't jump into the niche tasks (HUSAR, etc) and now you're thumbing your nose at Defense of Canada and DOMOPS?

If 2 Div is only capable of DOMOPS then the PRes leadership (yes, it's not the RSS' fault) has absolutely failed. This new structure provides a proper day to day mission task with a secondary task of full scale mobilization to keep the Regiment of Silly Hats crowd happy.