Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[McG]

My arguments all start from an unpopular premise. The unpoular premise I have been arguing for lo these many decades is that, like charity, defence begins at home

This doesn’t explain or support why there should be a full time occupation with a unique career management structure for the glory of the unique career management structure.

Maybe step back from the career focus of your force design and answer: What is the threat that requires a substantially large Domestic Defence Force? What is it defending against?

 

[daftandbarmy]

In what way?

An expeditionary air force is one of the key requirements of any NATO commitment. We deploy RCAF resources internationally all the time, e.g.,



“We’re going to exercise a concept that is called ‘agile combat employment.’ Basically, we’re deploying to unfamiliar aerodromes and unfamiliar operating conditions,” Tremblay-Verreault said.

Canadian fighter pilots to practise highway landings on NATO exercise

Canadian fighter pilots are arriving in Europe ahead of six weeks of multinational war games in the United Kingdom and Estonia, where they will practise landing CF-18 jets on rural highways as part of a simulated large-scale combat scenario.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[Kirkhill]

An expeditionary air force is one of the key requirements of any NATO commitment. We deploy RCAF resources internationally all the time, e.g.,



“We’re going to exercise a concept that is called ‘agile combat employment.’ Basically, we’re deploying to unfamiliar aerodromes and unfamiliar operating conditions,” Tremblay-Verreault said.

Canadian fighter pilots to practise highway landings on NATO exercise

Canadian fighter pilots are arriving in Europe ahead of six weeks of multinational war games in the United Kingdom and Estonia, where they will practise landing CF-18 jets on rural highways as part of a simulated large-scale combat scenario.

www.ctvnews.ca

I agree. We occasionally deploy 4 to 8 fighters. Out of a fleet of 40 to 80 fighters plus or minus.

The bulk of the effort is domestic and held domestically. It is available to usefully counter threats to the nation and the state.

 

[Kirkhill]

This doesn’t explain or support why there should be a full time occupation with a unique career management structure for the glory of the unique career management structure.

Maybe step back from the career focus of your force design and answer: What is the threat that requires a substantially large Domestic Defence Force? What is it defending against?

National Security

National Security

www.publicsafety.gc.ca

Start from here and tell me how the Canadian Armed Forces contributes to managing each of those threats. Specfically reference its role as the govenment's last resort when the unexpected happens or a particular threat achieves a higher than anticipated level.

 

[FJAG]

I agree. We occasionally deploy 4 to 8 fighters. Out of a fleet of 40 to 80 fighters plus or minus.

The bulk of the effort is domestic and held domestically. It is available to usefully counter threats to the nation and the state.

I think that's a leap. Most of our fighters are here because we need to train with them on a day to day basis to keep pilot proficiency. I expect there probably is a number required under our NORAD alert requirements (but have no idea how many those are).

I guess if you want to stretch the analogy, over 90% of our army is present in Canada at any given time so they must have a priority role for the defence of Canada to counter threats to the nation and state rather than expeditionary roles.

 

[Kirkhill]

I think that's a leap. Most of our fighters are here because we need to train with them on a day to day basis to keep pilot proficiency. I expect there probably is a number required under our NORAD alert requirements (but have no idea how many those are).

I guess if you want to stretch the analogy, over 90% of our army is present in Canada at any given time so they must have a priority role for the defence of Canada to counter threats to the nation and state rather than expeditionary roles.

Fair enough.

10%.

You want 1 brigade overseas.
I want 9 brigades in Canada.

You want a functional, fully staffed and equipped and well supported brigade overseas? I want 9 at home.

You want a regiment of guns and an anti-air regiment overseas? I want 9 at home. But I don't think I need 9 Field regiments at home. I will give you 3 more for rotational support and turn the other 6 into IAMD regiments - whatever those may look like.

You want 100 tanks / heavy direct fire support vehicles overseas. Give me 900 at home. But again I don't need 900. I will give you 300 and spend the rest of the equivalent value on light armoured vehicles, oversnow vehicles, riverine vessels, utility vehicles and helicopters.

And so on and so forth, etcetera und so weiter.

 

[Kirkhill]

PS can you get back to Canada as quickly as the Air Force if you are needed?

 

[FJAG]

But I don't think I need 9 Field regiments at home.

That's true. Napoleon did pretty well in quelling an uprising with just one battery and a whiff of grapeshot.

 

[Brad Sallows]

You will create little pools of stagnation where top leaders hang-on for years and the tallent below them quits because there is no local prospect for advancement and no mechanism to move to where advancement exists.

Which the Res F already is, so definitely a job for Res F...

 

[KevinB]

The LAV issue is not surprising given the origins of the LAV in the AVGP program which was originally envisaged as a domestic security vehicle and trainer with many folks proclaiming it would never be used outside of Canada.

I think it’s a significant leap in that respect. At the time the 6x6 MOWAG Piranha (that the AVGP series was license from) was generally seen as a domestic security vehicle, but the LAV-25 with the USMC brought the 8x8 LAV 2.0 to the forefront as an expeditionary combat vehicle.

There are a number of European nations that are planning on buying a lighter LAV III design than the LAV 6.0 as GDLS acquired MOWAG has started pushing the 8x8 and 10x10 systems in Europe. But they are much more along to the lines of the Canadian LAV III design as opposed to the double v hull 6.0 series and don’t share common engines or drive train.

The foreign service vehicle was the M113 as used by the US. The bison, too, was intended for domestic service while the M113 continued in foreign service.

So the Reg Force never planned on using the Bison as a domestic vehicle. While yes the original concept of buying 199 for the PRes was by nature a domestic service- but that lasted about as long as the ink was dry on the contract.

One year ago you would have had no argument from me. I've become more equipment agnostic with the predominant view being that I couldn't give a frig where the origin of the equipment initially comes from so long as we have the IP and can manufacture it ourselves. Americans have become unreliable allies.

Unreliable or not, we are the only player who has cards in a larger Russian or Chinese conflict. But yes the ability to have domestic manufacturing of both consumables (munitions many spare parts etc) and core systems is a must have for Canada to be able to try to stand on its own without needing to lean on our leg to keep you upright.

Maintenance is a big issue and quite frankly I don't care if you're running an M1 or a Leo as whatever organization you link into has a supply/maintenance system that doesn't interlock well with ours. We'll be lucky if the NATO standard ammo is interchangeable enough without having to adapt to it during a crisis moment.

Ah the joys of STANAG…
British 105mm Artillery and 120mm tank guns are really only the ammunitions that aren’t compatible. The UK has let stuff slip so far, they will be begging for ammo long before the CA does (scary huh!)

Amongst other things, this is why I feel we need to form the core of a division with a Canadian theatre support structure. A brigade might do, anything smaller definitely won't.

I fully agree with you there.

 

[KevinB]

PS can you get back to Canada as quickly as the Air Force if you are needed?

Short of an alien invasion what land threat do you see for Canada?
Because your domestic defense fixation is really unfathomable.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Short of an alien invasion what land threat do you see for Canada?
Because your domestic defense fixation is really unfathomable.

Chinese balloon parachutists.

 

[McG]

Start from here and tell me …

No. If you want to make the case for something, then you make the case for it.

 

[Kirkhill]

No. If you want to make the case for something, then you make the case for it.

20 plus years of trying...

 

[KevinB]

20 plus years of trying...

But you aren’t. You are putting forth a case without any justification.

Any financial or other organizational efforts should be linked to a justifiable cause. Which many of us do not feel you make.