Introducing ACP diploma into QL5 training

[adamop]

I think the one thing that seperates medics from other professions is that you truly need to commit to it for the life of your career in the army. The training you recieve it seems is not transferable to the civilian side, which has me considering not joining as a medic. I know some people might question if I am already having doubts now then don't bother joining, but how can I possibly pre-determine the next 25 years of my life.

I think they took a big step with introducing the PCP @ JIBC portion into the QL3 training, which will allow QL3 medics to get a license in their province and work on civilian ambulances and such. Besides giving them another career choice if they ever leave the CF, it also may serve as a tool to keep medics seeing patients and such and keep their skills up by allowing them access to more patients.

My question is... does anyone know if the army has considered introducing the ACP course into their QL5 training? It would give all trainees a credential they could actually use in the civilian world and might encourage more recruits to do it. Likewise, it usually takes a second contract before you get offered QL5 anyways, so it wouldn't be like some of the guys joining RegF to get a quick training and then bolting after 3 years. You'd probably need to commit at least 8 years to the army.

Just a thought. Do you think it is a good idea?

 

[aesop081]

I think the one thing that seperates medics from other professions is that you truly need to commit to it for the life of your career in the army. The training you recieve it seems is not transferable to the civilian side

You mean "as compared to other trades in the medical service" or "compared to other trades in the CF" ?

If you meant the second one, do i ever have news for you.......

 

[adamop]

Sorry I made that unclear. Obviously the CF has lots of trades which do not have transferability over to the civilian side. But those are mainly jobs on the CF which have no real world equivelancy (Balistics, Infantry, etc.). Many of the jobs which do have real world equivelances (Miltary Police, Pilot, Engineers, Mechanic, etc.) do offer training in the CF which is transferable over to civilian life. Why is the medic different... I mean one could even become a Physician Assistant, yet they would not (as far as I know) be able to work as one as a civilian.

 

[Armymedic]

They are looking at it. You are not the first to think of this.

A suggestion was passed up over a yr ago to do something along the lines of what you say. Career course/prehospital care progression would go along like this:
QL3-PCP, QL5- ACP, QL6- Critical Care Paramedicine. Mostly in response to the fact that the QL6 is a 10 day admin course. Some prehospital skills (like ACLS or more adv trauma skills) would be a good addition to the course.

Remember, there is quite a difference between a medic in the Res F and one in the Reg F. Also, with the exception of BC and Que, you can not go to work as a civilian paramedic without some additional (and quite expensive) training and testing.

 

[R933ex]

WRT the PA's, in the NWT we actually use civy PA's (almost all of them ex CF ) at several mine sites. In addition, both our Mine Safety Regulations and our New (proposed I should say) industrial Safety Regulations also spell out PA's as being one of the corner stones of advanced care in isolated workplaces.


In my current job, I am also aware that both Alberta And Ontario have also come a fair distance in recognizing PA training.

 

[Snowy91]

"On completion of this stage of training, Medical Technicians receive the professional credential of Primary Care Paramedic Level I."

Refering to MOC for med tech at:
http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=737&bhcp=1

What is Primary Care Paramedic Level I in translation to civilian jobs? What I mean is, is that enough to be a fully qualified Paramedic? or is it just a portion of the training you need to be a civilian paramedic?

 

[X Royal]

The point remains that qualifications for ambulance attendents vary from province to province.
I am qualified as a Advanced Medical First Responder & also a First Aid & CPR instructor. But I am not qualified to work on an ambulance in Ontario. In some provinces I am qualified to work in a entry level position but in most I am not.
Each province sets thier own standards & it would be hard for the CF to comply with all the different standards. Maybe a challenge proceedure based on qualifications earned & years experience would be the best solution? This exists in Ontario for military vehicle mechcanics after 8 years. With proof of time in the trade they can write the provincial exams & if they pass they will recieve thier provincial licence.

Best Wishes: Rick

 

[Armymedic]

WRT the PA's, in the NWT we actually use civy PA's (almost all of them ex CF ) at several mine sites. In addition, both our Mine Safety Regulations and our New (proposed I should say) industrial Safety Regulations also spell out PA's as being one of the corner stones of advanced care in isolated workplaces.


In my current job, I am also aware that both Alberta And Ontario have also come a fair distance in recognizing PA training.

There is a long way between recognizing and licencing. You need a licence to practice. There are no provinces who currently licence civilian PA. Every province recognizes military trained PAs as health care professionals, and allows then to be employed as a health care provider.

Same goes for CF trained PCP Med Techs.

 

[Armymedic]

What is Primary Care Paramedic Level I in translation to civilian jobs? What I mean is, is that enough to be a fully qualified Paramedic? or is it just a portion of the training you need to be a civilian paramedic?

PCP Level 1 is a college certificate. Depending on the province (like BC) you may be eligible to be employed by a civilian ambulance company. Other prov like Ont...it gets you bubkas. You still need to complete provincial licencing to be employed outside the military.

 

[DartmouthDave]

Hello,

I agree with the idea of Med-A training meeting the PCP standard. 

As for the ACP and CCP level I feel that this would be too hard to achieve and maintain in the CF.  You could give this training to a Med-A and I am sure many would excel at it.  However, when would they use it?  How would they maintain it? 

In order to safely and effectively use Advance Life Support skills one needs to use them all the time. Not just when the CF sends you to a civilian hospital or an ambulance services to gain experience and hands-on.  (Perhaps to work with a Res F Med-A in their civilian job  ) 

 

[Armymedic]

Sorry to disagree,

In order to safely and effectively use Advance Life Support skills one needs to use them all the time. Not just when the CF sends you to a civilian hospital or an ambulance services to gain experience and hands-on.  (Perhaps to work with a Res F Med-A in their civilian job  ) 

But that reason is not reason enough to not give the skills.

MedTechs...at least in the Reg F do not use all of their skills all of the time. Giving people the knowledge and skill to use it is the easy part, keeping those skills up is a difficulty we are constantly striving to achieve. But the toolbox is large, and given the variety of employment, any tool may be useful at any time.

The current MSCP does address those issues. That standard is one practice/course every 24 months...for all skills.

BTW...ACP and CCP is not far from the skills and knowledge a clinically competent Med Tech MCpl/Sgt already maintain. (I have done 2 ACLS courses and worked 1 code in 4 yrs)

 

[adamop]

Interesting replies. In regards to the PCP certificate, I am under the impression that the PCP is a nationally recognized course, and so is ACP and CCP.

In 2001 the NOCP was set to have four levels: EMR, PCP, ACP and CCP.

So anyone completing the PCP course at the JIBC will be eligible to work in ANY province in Canada. The only kicker is, you must pass their provincial licensing requirements. I know some said this, but others said different. It's up to YOU whether you pass it or not. For instance, with the oil rush boom out in Alberta, several colleagues have left BC and gone to Alberta to work as paramedics in oil fields. They have had to get their license in alberta and from what they told me, it wasn't too hard to do. Also. going from BC to Ontario is not too difficult. You would think it would be, since Ontario is a 2 year PCP diploma, and BC is a 4 month PCP certificate, but in BC, the course is VERY dense packed. Like 40 hours a week of classroom time + 30 hours a week studying. And in BC, you have more skills than in Ontario It's basically two semesters jammed into one. And they leave out all the junk you "don't need"). The course is basically the minimum required, which is probably why the army chose the JIBC for their contract and SarTech training - cause it's cheap and effective. Whether it's good or not is up for debate, but it's definitely quicker and cheaper.

The only problem with the ACP course is that meeting the NOCP is a lot more difficult as it requires significant clinical time. I think the NOCP is like 700 hours or something. So the actual ACP course cannot be completed in less than 1 year. I guess my main thought was that perhaps this would lure more people into the army - the prospect of getting free training and learning cool skills that will transfer over to the real world. After all, telling your friends you are a QL5A medic is cool, but they might not know exactly what it is you can do. The other bonus is it will allow people who come in with the credential to get a significant portion of their studies written off. One of the worst injustices in the army right now is having an ACP civvy trained person come in and have to learn all the basic skills over again and start from the bottom. The army job is indeed totally different, but that doesn't mean you need to learn how to intubate all over again and so on. Some skills are universal, army or civvy.

What they have done with QL3 is an awesome start, basically splitting it into 3 different categories:

- The army way (MOC)
- The civvy way (PCP @ JIBC)
- Clinical Phase (Borden)

So why can't they do something similiar with QL5? Then if you come in with an ACP, you can get the ACP part written off, while still doing "the army way" part.

As far as CCP goes, I don't know if that is neccesary at all. CCP's would be bordering on Physician Assistant territory. Why spend all the money and time training someone from an ACP to a CCP when you could just train them from ACP to PA? CCP's skills include things like interpreting xrays and giving more medications, central lines and stuff. Basically a very specialized (very very specialized) field intended only for transportation from hospital to hospital of very ill and sick patients who are on life support or in life threatening situations. An ACP would have a difficult time keeping their skills up in the army, but for a CCP it would be near impossible.

 

[Armymedic]

As far as CCP goes, I don't know if that is neccesary at all. CCP's would be bordering on Physician Assistant territory. Why spend all the money and time training someone from an ACP to a CCP when you could just train them from ACP to PA? CCP's skills include things like interpreting xrays and giving more medications, central lines and stuff. Basically a very specialized (very very specialized) field intended only for transportation from hospital to hospital of very ill and sick patients who are on life support or in life threatening situations. An ACP would have a difficult time keeping their skills up in the army, but for a CCP it would be near impossible.

Maybe, maybe not. You got to remember who the CCP would be for...QL6 Med Techs...Sgts who are 2 yrs away from being loaded onto thier PA course. Also as per skills learned on PCP, not all skills learned on ACP or CCP would be used by CF med techs, but again all are another tool for the tool box when a solution is required.

Besides for the CFs purpose, full qualification is not required so long as equivelency is achieved. With x months of classroom and x months of OJT.

But its still just a proposal, a pipe dream, albiet a good idea to master prehospital skills for Med Techs. Somebody in Ottawa or Borden may take it and run...

 

[adamop]

Maybe, maybe not. You got to remember who the CCP would be for...QL6 Med Techs...Sgts who are 2 yrs away from being loaded onto thier PA course. Also as per skills learned on PCP, not all skills learned on ACP or CCP would be used by CF med techs, but again all are another tool for the tool box when a solution is required.

Besides for the CFs purpose, full qualification is not required so long as equivelency is achieved. With x months of classroom and x months of OJT.

But its still just a proposal, a pipe dream, albiet a good idea to master prehospital skills for Med Techs. Somebody in Ottawa or Borden may take it and run...

True enough. But the CCP course is a tricky one anyways. Currently only one school is accredited by the CMA to teach it, Ontario Air Ambulance, and I believe they are taking advantage of that by charging something rediculous, like over $20,000 for it, and 1 year worth of time.

It all depends where you place PA's in the scope of things. Does it go PCP/ACP/CCP/PA .......... or does it go LPN/RN/PA/MD.

The good benefit to what you are suggestion, however, is that it could be a possible career stop for some. For instance, achieve the rank of Sergeant and be trained as a CCP - that is all many may want. Those people would then be ideal to go on extended tours and be very skilled at treating injured soliders in battle should the time ever come again when we have a war of all wars. Many may not want to progress on to WO and become a PA.

 

[MedCorps]

Just as an aside...

Ontario Air Ambulance is now called Ornge.  They still have the market on the CCP program as part of the education arm of the organization. 

Did some work with them when they were Ontario Air Ambulance Base Hospital Program.  Good people, and the CCP was / is a good program.

Cheers...

MC

 

[DartmouthDave]

Hello,

Experience, that is what is needed to be good at any job.  CF medics may have the knowledge but in general CF medics lack clinical experience.  A Med-A may have the knowledge of a PCP but not the experience.  A MCPL/SGT may have the knowledge of an ACP but they do not have the experience.  As a general rule. 

Doing some ER or ambulance time every one to two years dose not substitute for working in a medical field on a daily basis. Also, I do not see how a Reg F Med-A or PA can use their skills every day.  How many codes, trauma, or medical patients do they see per month or year?  How many IV do they start per week?  Medications they administer? How many patients have they tubed this month? 

Why teach a skill that can not be maintined?  Or worse case, if called upon may do more harm than good?  For example, airway management.  You teach a Med-A intubation skills.  You learn on 'Fred the Head" and then tube a cadaver or a patient in the OR.  Great.  Then what?  Tube a patient 16 months later? If that?  How can that be safe? 

 

[adamop]

I don't think anyone would disagree. Currently physicians that work for the CF do hospital days once per week to maintain their skills and knowledge. I think the army is more interested in drilling the stuff into your head, and then relying on you to keep up to date with it, practice in your spare time, etc. I doubt many QL5's do intubations at all except in hospitals. I doubt there would be any scenario, in fact, in which a QL5 medic could do an intubation in which a physician or PA wouldn't be there to do it first (in non-war times). So that being said, is there a real need to be an expert at intubation? Yes it would be nice, but is it worth the same type of devotion as is given to a physician (hospital time each week?). It's a skill that QL5 learns. Even if they don't do it for years, they are still able to do it, they won't forget - it will just take some time to remember it. Obviously when intubation is needed, time is of the essence, but if the skill is there, a medic will eventually come around and perform.

Hello,

Experience, that is what is needed to be good at any job.  CF medics may have the knowledge but in general CF medics lack clinical experience.  A Med-A may have the knowledge of a PCP but not the experience.  A MCPL/SGT may have the knowledge of an ACP but they do not have the experience.  As a general rule.   

Doing some ER or ambulance time every one to two years dose not substitute for working in a medical field on a daily basis. Also, I do not see how a Reg F Med-A or PA can use their skills every day.  How many codes, trauma, or medical patients do they see per month or year?  How many IV do they start per week?  Medications they administer? How many patients have they tubed this month? 

Why teach a skill that can not be maintined?  Or worse case, if called upon may do more harm than good?  For example, airway management.  You teach a Med-A intubation skills.  You learn on 'Fred the Head" and then tube a cadaver or a patient in the OR.  Great.  Then what?  Tube a patient 16 months later? If that?  How can that be safe? 

 

[old medic]

I doubt there would be any scenario, in fact, in which a QL5 medic could do an intubation in which a physician or PA wouldn't be there to do it first (in non-war times).

I can think of quite a few.

 

[adamop]

I can think of quite a few.

Enough to justify having paramedics do hospital rounds every week like MD's? Because that was the point I was emphasizing. If so, I would love to hear them.

 

[old medic]

Paramedics don't do hospital rounds every week now.