Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[dapaterson]

The 330 was not a sole source. It was an open competition, and one bidder failed to meet the qualification standard.

For the P8, the market survey identified that there was only one aircraft that met the specification. That is not considered sole source, either.

 

[MJP]

Respectfully, you may call is hearsay, but when a trusted friend and respected NCO, who's entire civilian career is safety investigations tells me things he reports are being swept under the rug. I'll believe him, this wasn't a my friends uncles second cousin story but a first hand account.

You are free to believe what you wish from any source. It is at the end of the day an anecdotal story and no one here nor likely does your buddy have the full story of what happened and was done afterwards. Reality in these cases is often vastly different than the Unit/BattleGroup/NSE (or Army.ca online) rumor mill.

 

[dimsum]

Is this the RPAS you refer to ttps://www.c4isrnet.com/unmanned/2023/11/23/canada-delays-36-billion-reaper-buy-until-drones-can-work-in-arctic/

That’s not the GoC directing (or delaying) it though. As I‘ve mentioned before, no one else has done it with an MQ-9B. The USAF has tested it in Eielson AFB with the MQ-9A, which isn’t exactly the same thing. It’s not like most aircraft where the difference between A and B models is a second seat for a trainer variant.

330's and P8s don't know about. Are they really the only plane the CAF could use for that role or should there be a bidding process instead of sole source?

There have been two very highly charged threads on both the A330 and the P-8. I’d rather breathe into a sealed plastic bag over my head rather than go through that again.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The difference between the Army and the RCAF when it comes to safety is that the Army is looking to fix the blame, while the RCAF is looking to fix the problem.

The Navy is the same as the army, except the blame is fixed behind closed doors, and any lessons learned buried and overclassified. There were a bunch of career implications from the PRO fire, but on a backdoor blackballing with no proper representation you would get in something fair and open like a court martial. And we never fixed the issue (and regularly do the same things or worse as the root causes of the fire).

Still have to argue with people that no, using AFFF isn't worse then letting a fire burn, (and no, halon doesn't displace oxygen and kill people, and you can't invert a thermal layer, and you won't die if your bunker gear is wet and....)

 

[dimsum]

The Navy is the same as the army, except the blame is fixed behind closed doors, and any lessons learned buried and overclassified. There were a bunch of career implications from the PRO fire, but on a backdoor blackballing with no proper representation you would get in something fair and open like a court martial. And we never fixed the issue (and regularly do the same things or worse as the root causes of the fire).

Still have to argue with people that no, using AFFF isn't worse then letting a fire burn, (and no, halon doesn't displace oxygen and kill people, and you can't invert a thermal layer, and you won't die if your bunker gear is wet and....)

The fact that PRO wasn’t treated like a Flight Safety investigation is absolutely bonkers.

But again…

 

[dapaterson]

The Navy is the same as the army, except the blame is fixed behind closed doors, and any lessons learned buried and overclassified. There were a bunch of career implications from the PRO fire, but on a backdoor blackballing with no proper representation you would get in something fair and open like a court martial. And we never fixed the issue (and regularly do the same things or worse as the root causes of the fire).

Still have to argue with people that no, using AFFF isn't worse then letting a fire burn, (and no, halon doesn't displace oxygen and kill people, and you can't invert a thermal layer, and you won't die if your bunker gear is wet and....)

Look at you with all your "facts" and "science". We all know that tall tales in the mess beat those, every day.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The fact that PRO wasn’t treated like a Flight Safety investigation is absolutely bonkers.

But again…

The last major fire investigation (FRE in Norway) was, with a similar approach taken to the Westralia fire BOI report. The timelines etc were there, with positions used instead of people, so more like a fllight safety report. A draft of that was out in a week, and unfortunately took almost 18 months to get a final report (lab work, corrupted video files, being 4/5 hatted etc) done but was unclassified is widely available and distributed. The PRO B stuff was in an annex that was just dropped from the distribution. Progress, I guess?

But at least it's not because of the info being buried, and in that case we deliberately took the flight safety approach.

A few LL seemed to be taken in, but the big ones were roundly ignored by the RCN, and the exact same conditions or worse exist on most operating CPFs, just the stars haven't misaligned together yet. Generally it's not one big thing, it's a lot of small things and how they cumulatively undercut the design and assumptions on crewing and training that were made.

The executive summary was pretty blunt, and essentially said this was the best case scenario for that fire, and other CPFs wouldn't have had working halon or a backup PDE engine in a different space (or 250 crew) so probably would have run aground. That was met with crickets.

Can only do what you can do though, and I hope never have to say 'I told you so' from something worse.

PRO BOI was finally unclassified a year or two ago, but hard to actually get. Hilariously though, LL from PRO BOI were incorporated, but because the design context is totally different they no longer make any sense so actually results in a system that will never get used and just be a giant maintenance pig.

 

[KevinB]

How much of our current problems as a country are a result of an effective and prolonged war of strategic doctrine executed by our adversaries. Economic warfare, social warfare, psychological warfare... all of this degrades us steadily. Look no further than common sense to identify which areas we are being deliberately and effectively targeted in.

No you guys fucked yourselves, you really don't need any help.

 

[QV]

No you guys fucked yourselves, you really dont need any help.

I find it impossible to believe things are this fucked up over such a long period only due to incompetence.

 

[KevinB]

I find it impossible to believe things are this fucked up over such a long period only due to incompetence.

Don't forget apathy, that's a major Canadian strong suit.

 

[MilEME09]

I find it impossible to believe things are this fucked up over such a long period only due to incompetence.

I doubt it's incompetence completely, I find there is a general lack of hard accountability, sure someone might get a stern talking to, and then we carry on. The issue then repeats, and we aren't using all the tools in the box.

 

[KevinB]

I doubt it's incompetence completely, I find there is a general lack of hard accountability, sure someone might get a stern talking to, and then we carry on. The issue then repeats, and we aren't using all the tools in the box.

You have a lot of tools though, they just aren't equipment

 

[CountDC]

The 330s and P8s are massive wins for the CAF. Sole sourcing is frankly the most efficient way we can procure anything, every bidding process turns into a legal shit show while we consistently try and “Canadianize” everything at great cost.

Agree on the sole sourcing as efficient if done properly and fully justified. If not done properly though it too could become a legal shit show. Not a fan of Canadianize everything but even sole sourcing we tend to do that.

The 330 was not a sole source. It was an open competition, and one bidder failed to meet the qualification standard.

For the P8, the market survey identified that there was only one aircraft that met the specification. That is not considered sole source, either.

Ah, everything I saw was pointing to a sole source for both of them with I think it was a France company protesting they didn't get to bid the 330. The P8 has all the marking of sole source, identifying there is only one provider available is the justification for sole sourcing. Still haven't seen anything on a bid request.

That’s not the GoC directing (or delaying) it though. As I‘ve mentioned before, no one else has done it with an MQ-9B. The USAF has tested it in Eielson AFB with the MQ-9A, which isn’t exactly the same thing. It’s not like most aircraft where the difference between A and B models is a second seat for a trainer variant.


There have been two very highly charged threads on both the A330 and the P-8. I’d rather breathe into a sealed plastic bag over my head rather than go through that again.

Looks like a nice piece of equipment although I am not 100% that it will go through as they do say they are hoping to have a contract in place. Interesting page here Remotely piloted aircraft systems - Air procurement initiatives - PSPC Services - PSPC that shows how long these processes can take and why maybe we have such an equipment issue. Started in 2012 and hoping to have a contract in 2024.

Can't help notice all these announcements of military purchases all seem to have a first item delivery of after the next election. Wonder if that will be part of the campaign - vote liberal or all these toys will be scrapped by the other party. Hopefully this time none will be scratched and the much needed equipment delivered.

 

[FJAG]

Don't forget apathy, that's a major Canadian strong suit.

Committees. We are masters at committees.

 

[KevinB]

Can't help notice all these announcements of military purchases all seem to have a first item delivery of after the next election. Wonder if that will be part of the campaign - vote liberal or all these toys will be scrapped by the other party. Hopefully this time none will be scratched and the much needed equipment delivered.

Well there is a rather significant conflict going on in the world, and a few more minor ones either in action or brewing up, so JIT ordering isn't exactly there...
Most companies/governments now have some significant penalty clauses if Canada backs out as well, as the history of CAF procurment isn't exactly stellar.

 

[dimsum]

Committees. We are masters at committees.

US military enters the chat

 

[CBH99]

And sadly our allies already think we are a joke. According to a friend who was over with 2VP this past year, our allies didn't have nice things to say, and our own troops nearly got them selves killed multiple times from safety violations. Long story short our reputation has been harmed.

I think that impression of us changes depending on which unit is rotating in. A few of the Strathcona's I work with said the same thing about the Italian contingent...

"Nice uniforms. Nice looking kit. But had no idea what they were doing, and nearly got themselves killed just with some basic range safety stuff..."

 

[CBH99]

Most companies/governments now have some significant penalty clauses if Canada backs out as well, as the history of CAF procurment isn't exactly stellar.

GOOD. I hope those companies make cancelling a contract or 'needing to review, again'/dithering on something to pass the buck, so darn painful that the government can't stomach the idea.

If it's a bad decision, then maybe have some sort of exit clause...but even that should be noticeably painful that the public will notice and be pissed, and act as a real deterrence to dicking about

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The P8 has all the marking of sole source, identifying there is only one provider available is the justification for sole sourcing. Still haven't seen anything on a bid request.

The GOC publicly announced an RFI process in Feb 2022 that detailed the requirements for a replacement aircraft in great detail including some HLMRs (high level mandatory requirements). I assure you, none of those HLMRs are “made up” so the P-8 was selected.

If no other interested parties submitted a response to the RFI that met the HLMRs, having a bid process would be nothing more than a waste of time; time the fleet can’t really afford to piss away.

Here’s a link to the RFI, look to Sect 5 for timelines and the Annexes for HLMR.

https://buyandsell.gc.ca/cds/public/2022/02/10/40e474721d25ec41e82e2941aa3754f5/canadian_multi-mission_aircraft_project_request_for_information_02.10.2022.pdf

I’d also draw your attention to Annex C; MOTS was not the only option being considered during the OA phase.

 

[dimsum]

Ah, everything I saw was pointing to a sole source for both of them with I think it was a France company protesting they didn't get to bid the 330. The P8 has all the marking of sole source, identifying there is only one provider available is the justification for sole sourcing. Still haven't seen anything on a bid request.

The STTC project which resulted in the A330 was a competition between the Airbus A330 and the Boeing KC-46. I don’t know what other French aircraft would be competing as they are a major partner in Airbus. The Boeing bid was deemed non-competitive and dropped.

The CMMA project sent out an RFI in 2022, and based on that it went with the P-8. Now, I have no idea what Bombardier and other companies did (or didn’t do) with said RFI response.

Looks like a nice piece of equipment although I am not 100% that it will go through as they do say they are hoping to have a contract in place. Interesting page here Remotely piloted aircraft systems - Air procurement initiatives - PSPC Services - PSPC that shows how long these processes can take and why maybe we have such an equipment issue. Started in 2012 and hoping to have a contract in 2024.

Can't help notice all these announcements of military purchases all seem to have a first item delivery of after the next election. Wonder if that will be part of the campaign - vote liberal or all these toys will be scrapped by the other party. Hopefully this time none will be scratched and the much needed equipment delivered.

I think those just happen to be then bc of the lead times required to get aircraft and, more importantly, train crews.

As much as I would love to learn Kung Fu via Matrix, it takes months to train to a new aircraft and months more to set up training postings for those initial crews to wherever they’ll be doing that.