Justin Trudeau - Timelines

[OldSolduer]

MY apologies to Justin, BUT these two aspire to their father's ideals.

They are not in keeping with Canadian values as I see them.

We used to stand for something, and that is what was right. The right thing to do, whether or not it was on your continent or not.

Did our grandfathers and great grandfathers et al balk at Vimy Ridge? NO!

Did our forefathers wring their hands and whine "Its not our war" when Hitler went on a rampage? NO!!

So lets get off our duffs, Canada and get back to doing the right thing....not the "popular" thing.

 

[geo]

Whupsie... I might have accidentaly "smeared" Justin with his brother's rhetoric.
Thousand appologies to Justin.. I guess.  Now that Justin is standing in the front ranks of the Fed Libs, I guess he's just waiting for Stephane to step on his D!cc - and possibly open the way to the party leadership - maybee/possibly.  Good reason for keeping mouth shut in the meantime.

 

[observor 69]

Well so far this thread has done a good job of attacking the messenger vice addressing the salient points of the message.

I could list here many independent qualified groups that say the mission in Afghanistan is in danger of being lost due to lack of NATO and the West's support or in other words lack of boots on the ground and dedicated equipment, heavy lift choppers etc. The situation is complex involving many players/countries.

The Pashtun (people) have extremely different values than ours, values we may not agree with in any case.

True to most of the region Pakistan, Nepal and India.

"We're going to have to leave the place or there'll be nothing left of us or of whatever we've done, except the blood we've lost there after we leave. "

Strong words but if the mission does not succeed, which is a possibility, I would expect this will be true. The Taliban are already busy blowing up schools and chocking of the rights of women. Even the most optimistic picture does not show a country that would look like any Western democracy.

I support my brothers in combat all the way but the way the mission is presently configured, as Gen Mackenzie has said, is in trouble.
Hopefully things will improve. The US is sending more troops and showing a renewed interest in this war.

 

[Proud_Newfoundlander]

Highlights mine, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

'Canada needs to leave Afghanistan'
Jeff Heinrich ,  Canwest News Service, 21 Aug 08
Article link

MONTREAL - Canada's "aggressive" war in Afghanistan is all about "teaching lessons with weapons" and will leave nothing behind "except the blood we've lost there," the journalist son of late prime minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau said Thursday.

"Our aggressive military activities in Afghanistan are foolish and wrong," said Alexandre (Sacha) Trudeau, 34.

"The Pashtun (people) have extremely different values than ours, values we may not agree with in any case, but it's not our business to try and teach them lessons with weapons," Trudeau told Canwest News Service.

"Because, in fact, they'll be the ones teaching us lessons.

"We're going to have to leave the place or there'll be nothing left of us or of whatever we've done, except the blood we've lost there after we leave. So it's better we leave now."

Trudeau was speaking from Beijing, where he has been filing cultural reports on China as part of the CBC's Olympic broadcast team.

He made his comments at the end of an interview to promote his latest documentary film, Refuge, about war-ravaged Darfur. The interview was done two hours before news that three more Canadian soldiers had died in Afghanistan on Wednesday was announced.

Trudeau knows the Canadian military firsthand, but not through combat. In the mid-1990s he trained as a reserve officer at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick and joined the Royal Canadian Hussars in Montreal, one of Canada's oldest army reserve regiments, with the rank of second lieutenant.

Shortly after that, he embarked on a career as a globe-trotting journalist and filmmaker.

Asked Thursday whether he now wants to make his next film in Afghanistan - an idea he floated last year on The Hour, a CBC talk show hosted by George Stroumboulopoulos - Trudeau replied "No."

"I don't think I'd go to Afghanistan," he said.

"I don't want to go and sit in the (Canadian Forces) camp in Kandahar and film the Tim Hortons.

"What I want to do is leave it to younger filmmakers to show who the Pashtun are - people we falsely call Taliban, in most cases - and why we really have no reason to tell them how to live their lives, why Afghanistan should be left to its own devices."

Trudeau said he had approached several TV networks to make a film about the country. Each one turned him down, probably because in 2006 "I made a film about Canadian politics, Secure Freedom, about Canadian security certificates," that was highly critical of the Harper government's anti-terrorism measures.

"Networks have shied away from allowing me to go to Afghanistan when I had the chance, and now I don't think I'd want to go - it's too dangerous," Trudeau said.

Before the birth of his son, Pierre Emmanuel, in December 2006, Trudeau travelled to places like Liberia, Iraq and the West Bank to make a series of subjective, point-of-view documentaries about the human cost of war and conflict. He went to Sudan and Chad last year to live, travelling with rebels fighting the Sudanese government.

As a young father, his days of perilous travels are now firmly behind him, Trudeau said.

He intends to return to Montreal "in a couple of weeks" with the nearly completed manuscript of his "labour of love," a book about China that he has been researching and writing for several years and which is to be published next spring.

Yeah, the Taliban were on their own, and well, we saw how that played out. From what I've been reading only 20% of the pashtun region is against us, and thats the highest support level throughout the entire country. I also suppose anyone that isnt a an islamic male likes the system fine and dandy, having no rights isn't as bad as it sounds. I also suppose leaving the country instead of rebuilding is a good idea too, and leavin weapons down will certainly stop the taliban from doing whatever they do (suicide bombings, hostages, executions and attacks).


I have to agree with the majority of this forum for once, when we will we be ridden of this Family ? (I actually thought sacha was the sensible one up to now)

 

[Jarnhamar]

Strong words but if the mission does not succeed, which is a possibility,

Not in my books brother. Nor many other deployed soldiers, I would imagine.  We've already won, the Taliban are just a little slow and haven't realized it yet 

I have to agree with the majority of this forum for once, when we will we be ridden of this Family ?

Hey be nice guy.
I wonder if Sacha would be interested in my idea of doing a documentary on the Khadr family using US deserters as extras in a Blair witch favor.

 

[OldSolduer]

IN all fairness, Pierre Elliot did run the FLQ to ground. But they got away and were allowed to return.

 

[Proud_Newfoundlander]

Well, I think Pierre aggravated the situation, especially later on (notably leaving quebec out of the constitution as a signee).

 

[retiredgrunt45]

"What I want to do is leave it to younger filmmakers to show who the Pashtun are - people we falsely call Taliban, in most cases - and why we really have no reason to tell them how to live their lives, why Afghanistan should be left to its own devices."

I think he needs to brush up on his history. While the Pashtun who prefer to be called Taliban were in power he conveniently forgot to mention how many people they killed or executed in sports stadiums and the like, mainly women and people who didn't adhere to their twisted philosophy of Sharia law. The taliban are all about shoving their beliefs down other peoples necks, no matter what the cost and for those who didn't comply, they are systematically murdered or barbarically tortured into submission. We live in the 21st century not the 6Th century. The taliban are nothing but as bunch of phycotic thugs, right up there with the likes of Hitler and Stalin and they have to be eradicated just like the cockroaches they are.

Sorry Sacha, but you need to tell the whole story. There's your version and then there's the hard cold facts.

 

[BigRudy]

I think it all comes down to opinion of convenience for "these people". If we had never gone into Afghanistan, and the Taliban were still treating their people like it was the damn dark ages, "these people" would be throwing a massive hissy fit about how we should be there, how can Harper stand by and let this happen, etc etc. Unfortunately for "these people", their pretty hypocritical little lives get messed up several times a year, when they see the true cost of Canada standing up for those who can't stand up for themselves: a ramp ceremony on the evening news and a newspaper article the next day.

While I am sure their emotional burden is a heavy one to bear, I doubt it's anywhere close to as heavy as carrying a casket down the runway at KAF(which isn't in the same category as their burden- it's an honour). So, perhaps the onus should be on them to remember why we go to places like this in the first place, and why it's important that we continue to do so.

I won't be holding my breath...

 

[Franko]

Trudeau knows the Canadian military firsthand, but not through combat. In the mid-1990s he trained as a reserve officer at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick and joined the Royal Canadian Hussars in Montreal, one of Canada's oldest army reserve regiments, with the rank of second lieutenant.

IIRC it was 1992 or 1993...

He also knows the consequences of being AWOL as well and being ratted out by his dear old pappa for us to deal with him. (I loved that day of duty)

Mr Trudeau called the School and asked to speak with his son. We tried to find him, seeing as they were all CB'd that weekend he should have been in the shacks...but wasn't. Dear old dad put him on the line....

The DO spoke to him and advised him that was going to be charged with AWOL and to make his way back down pronto, which he did and was promptly charged.

Glad to have met the twit when he went through the Armour School....he made an impression to all that met him then and it still rings true today.

Garbage commander that couldn't make the simplest of decisions nor follow the simplest of orders. I loathed driving him.

Regards

 

[Sythen]

Did our forefathers wring their hands and whine "Its not our war" when Hitler went on a rampage? NO!!

Isn't there a picture or something of the elder wearing a nazi helmet driving his motorbike somewhere during the war?

 

[jollyjacktar]

SKT is right, my thoughts exactly when I read the first post.  Like Father like Son.  I remember the Trudeau era both in the CF and as  a Civillian.    Hope this little bugger does not get in too deep like his old man.

 

[Proud_Newfoundlander]

yeah, trudeau had a rather low regard for soliders, they were just dolts and idiot and mindless killing machines to him. yeah, during ww2 him an his buddies rode on motorcycles through the quebec countryside in prussian army gear. He was then conscripted and let out due to abd behaviour.

My dad was in the CF in the 70's and when he was out on the field he says they didnt have e money for blanks, so when they were in war games they would have to yell "bang bang", and he says they were using "old crap from the 50's"

 

[The Bread Guy]

He also knows the consequences of being AWOL as well and being ratted out by his dear old pappa for us to deal with him. (I loved that day of duty)

Mr Trudeau called the School and asked to speak with his son. We tried to find him, seeing as they were all CB'd that weekend he should have been in the shacks...but wasn't. Dear old dad put him on the line....

Didn't agree with the old man's policies, but I have to give him credit for this one...

 

[a_majoor]

Like most other members of the chattering class, he recycles any negative observation he hears (and think about it, if you took out the name, how are these comments different from those of the Selnis Council, the Polaris Institute, the NDP, the Toronto Star, etc?).

The two things that make the Selnis council stand apart from the others is they also have "boots on the ground", and unlike anyone else on the Left, they actually propose a solution. (we may not agree with the solution, but at least there is something substantive there to discuss). So instead of wasting precious bandwidth on the various Oxygen thieves out there, lets focus our considerable talents and energies on looking for and implementing actual solutions to the problems we see and hear about. Here at home we can raise monies for schools and teachers, get on talk radio and tell our stories and let the public know what the "journalists" who "sit in the (Canadian Forces) camp in Kandahar and film the Tim Hortons" don't, or go over there with NGO's (or even found our own. I'm thinking Kandahar province is in dire need of reforestation, for example....)

Trudeau (either one) can be set on "ignore". We have work to do......

 

[The Bread Guy]

Now, a counterpoint - highlights mine - shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Back to basics on Afghanistan
Globe & Mail editorial, 23 Aug 08
Article link

Alexandre Trudeau should stick to filmmaking. The documentarian and political heir could not have been more wrong when he argued this week that Canada should end its "aggressive" military operation in Afghanistan and leave alone the Pashtun people who "have extremely different values than ours, values we may not agree with," and whom we "have no reason to tell...how to live their lives." "It's not our business to try to teach them lessons," he said.

Mr. Trudeau's claims are mistaken on every level of analysis. One might begin with the fact that the Pashtun - the ethnic group from which the Taliban emerged - represent just 42 per cent of Afghanistan's population, and that the Taliban used their position of power before the 2001 invasion to oppress, and occasionally massacre, non-Pashtun Afghans.

More important than Mr. Trudeau's evident ignorance of Afghan demographics is that, if the country were "left to its own devices," as he suggests, it would almost certainly reclaim its former position as champion of the global league of utterly odious societies, and resume exporting abroad the venom that fuelled its barbarity.

The "extremely different values" to which Mr. Trudeau refers included, before the arrival of Western troops in 2001, denying women health care and education and banning them from public gatherings, amputating their fingers for the sin of wearing nail polish, and executing adulterers by stoning.

There are a great many societies where "values we may not agree with" prevail, and Canadian soldiers are demonstrably not fighting to change them. Afghanistan under the Taliban was in a class of its own. For Afghans, the stakes of a NATO withdrawal before a stable democracy is in place are a return to those medieval conditions, not a benign shift in social norms.

Those stakes are high for us, too. There is little doubt that an Afghanistan allowed to regress to its old habits would be an expansive safe haven for violent extremism, particularly as practised by al-Qaeda, whose leaders are currently trapped in a small corner of Pakistan.

Politicians have cried "wolf" over potential terrorist attacks with sufficient frequency since 2001 to make it easy to forget that the threat remains real, and that all Western states, Canada included, could be affected by it.

Denying militants the use of Afghanistan as a base for international operations has been an undeniable reason for our good fortune to date.

The mission in Afghanistan is far from perfect. Progress toward stable, secular, democratic government there has been erratic. It is unclear whether NATO can shut down an increasingly organized insurgency without substantial reinforcement, and Canada, along with a few partners, has had to shoulder a tremendous military burden in the country's most volatile regions, as other allies have kept their troops far away from trouble.

When Canadian soldiers return from a faraway land in coffins, it is tempting to suggest that their mission was both doomed and unnecessary. But it is neither, and the risks of concluding otherwise are grave indeed."

 

[vonGarvin]

"Networks have shied away from allowing me to go to Afghanistan when I had the chance, and now I don't think I'd want to go - it's too dangerous," Trudeau said.

He went to Sudan and Chad last year to live, travelling with rebels fighting the Sudanese government.

As a young father, his days of perilous travels are now firmly behind him, Trudeau said.

Could he explain why Afghanistan is too dangerous?
Could he please elaborate on his understanding of Pashtuns, and kindly explain why there are many Pashtuns in the ANA fighting against the Taliban?
Could he explain why he is against "teaching" Pashtuns a lesson, but for teaching Sudanese a lesson?

Since I too am a young-ish father, could he explain to me why I should not be making a perilous travel in the near future?

 

[The Bread Guy]

The two things that make the Senlis council stand apart from the others is they also have "boots on the ground", and unlike anyone else on the Left, they actually propose a solution. (we may not agree with the solution, but at least there is something substantive there to discuss).

They're also willing to discuss it reasonably intelligently with a range of players, without just ranting  ideologically.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The Calgary Herald seems to agree with the Globe & Mail.. Highlights are mine, shared with the usual disclaimer.

Trudeau, not mission, is wrong
Calgary Herald, 24 Aug 08

We will say this on behalf of Alexandre Trudeau. When he uttered his defeatist remarks about Canada's military efforts to help the Afghan people realize some degree of dignity and freedom, he could not have known that within two hours, the deaths of three more Canadian soldiers would be announced in Kandahar.

However, he chose to describe Canada's role as "aggressive," as though it had taken Great Britain's 19th century place in the Great Game, as the geopolitics of central Asia was then described. He further predicted Canada will leave nothing behind, "except the blood we've lost there."

The truth of the matter of course, is that Canada fights in Afghanistan along with many other countries under the authorization of a December 2001 UN resolution, that stated "the situation in Afghanistan . . . constitutes a threat to international peace and security."

Yet, to describe as aggression this country's taking its place as a responsible member of the international community is to so twist the meaning of the word, that young Trudeau exposes himself to the suspicion he does not wish the military mission well.

Given his brief service in the militia, we will give him the benefit of the doubt. However, his words are a slap in the face to every Canadian who grieves a fallen soldier. They died in a cause that is neither "wrong" nor "foolish" -- other epithets he offered -- unless it be wrong to help the downtrodden, and foolish to try.

It is actually Trudeau who is wrong. For it is not only their blood that 93 Canadian soldiers left behind. They also left an example of what it means to live richly in the service of others, even to the point of death.

Ordinary Afghans will understand, and marvel, even if Trudeau does not.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Just taking a stab in the dark here, but I bet his politician brother was on the phone pretty quick, telling him to STFU ;D