Keir Starmer Announces Resignation

[Brad Sallows]

Sure thing. But when it comes to governance, the population isnt giving UK PMs grace to deal with those economic costs.

Now that the UK has full control over itself, UK PMs are in part not being given grace because they're moving too slowly making changes voters want made on matters other than purely economic/fiscal. All the recent headlines were about censorship, highly unsatisfying choices about which people are permitted room to misbehave and which are in trouble if they express a contrary opinion, and the specific behaviour of a few immigrants and the people who, apparently, enabled them because they were cowed by some variation of identity politics. Economy wasn't mentioned much.

They want their services, they dont want higher taxes, the UK economy cannot function because the financial sector doesnt have the seamless access to the continent.

Pretty much every country and many of their lower level governments have revenue-expense imbalances on the adverse side right now. Not really much point singling out the UK. Maybe people who favoured Remain are having trouble letting go.

Talk sovereignty all you want, brexit broke the UK. And now nobody can run it.

Brexit was effect, not cause. The UK was already "broken", if "broken" just means there's a ruling class that persists in trying to govern the country at odds with a majority of the governed. Governments all over Europe are having that problem. In each case, something is going to give. The governing classes are remarkably obtuse and determined to have their way, so my money is on the people eventually overturning all the card tables.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The revolving door at 10 Downing is unsurprising given the economic issues prevailing over the past decade or so...

How Brexit has made Britain poorer – in charts​

Forecasters were wrong about an immediate recession but right that we would be worse off outside the EU

But experts agree the long-term forecasters were on the money: the economy is significantly smaller than it would otherwise have been, trade has suffered, business investment and productivity growth have stalled, and families are on average thousands of pounds a year worse off.

How Brexit has made Britain poorer – in charts

Forecasters were wrong about an immediate recession but right that we would be worse off outside the EU

www.theguardian.com

Keeping in mind the leaders of the EU need to punish the UK, to keep the lesser nations inline, otherwise they might up and go as well. We are still in "punishment" stage, adding in Covid as well. I will argue that it is far to early to tell whether it is a success or failure.

 

[Altair]

Keeping in mind the leaders of the EU need to punish the UK, to keep the lesser nations inline, otherwise they might up and go as well. We are still in "punishment" stage, adding in Covid as well. I will argue that it is far to early to tell whether it is a success or failure.

Its ten years later, they are markedly poorer, and have gone through more prime ministers than Italy and one less than France over the same timeframe.

And this isnt even to mention every devolved administration outside of London is run by separatists.

Massive failure. How much more time do we all need to see that?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Massive failure. How much more time do we all need to see that?

Britons are much better off than Iranians, and some people here are spouting off about how successful Iran has been lately. Maybe calibrate your superlatives?

 

[Altair]

Britons are much better off than Iranians, and some people here are spouting off about how successful Iran has been lately. Maybe calibrate your superlatives?

One. Keep threads on proper topics maybe?

Two. The UK was in line with its peers in terms of political stability and economic performance, and since brexit have failed spectacularly at both.

If you want to say sovergnity is worth that, be my guest, but judging by the churn at the top of british politics since brexit, the public clearly aren't happy.

 

[Brad Sallows]

One. Keep threads on proper topics maybe?

Two. The UK was in line with its peers in terms of political stability and economic performance, and since brexit have failed spectacularly at both.

This is on topic. You're just throwing out superlatives: "massively", "spectacularly". Nothing remotely quantifiable or even justifiable by relative comparisons.

Haiti is a massively or spectacularly failed nation. The UK is not. Among "its peers" it ranks well in absolute GDP and per capita GDP. "Failure" isn't on any list of remotely non-risible descriptions.

If you want to say sovergnity is worth that, be my guest, but judging by the churn at the top of british politics since brexit, the public clearly aren't happy.

And my contention is that departing the EU was an effect of dissatisfaction. PM churn started before Brexit, which makes Brexit a poor candidate for your claims about dissatisfaction.

 

[Altair]

This is on topic. You're just throwing out superlatives: "massively", "spectacularly". Nothing remotely quantifiable or even justifiable by relative comparisons.

Yeah, sure, the UK is 10 percent poorer now because of brexit, better?

Haiti is a massively or spectacularly failed nation. The UK is not. Among "its peers" it ranks well in absolute GDP and per capita GDP. "Failure" isn't on any list of remotely non-risible descriptions.

The UK is massively underperforming it's peers in the EU post Brexit. The UK was matching their peers in the EU pre brexit.

That's a failure. Not a failed nation, but a failure in economic performance. And the point of divergence, surprise, Brexit.

And my contention is that departing the EU was an effect of dissatisfaction. PM churn started before Brexit, which makes Brexit a poor candidate for your claims about dissatisfaction.

The PM churn absolutely did not start before brexit.

Margaret Thatcher: 11 years, 211 days
Tony Blair: 10 years, 58 days
John Major: 6 years, 157 days
David Cameron: 6 years, 65 days
*Boris Johnson: 3 years, 45 days
*Theresa May: 3 years, 11 days
*Gordon Brown: 2 years, 319 days
*Rishi Sunak: 1 year, 254 days
*Keir Starmer: 1 year, 353 days (Ongoing)
*Liz Truss: 0 years, 49 days

*Post Brexit Prime Ministers.

The UK had relatively stable governments before brexit, not a single PM has served a full term since.

 

[Eaglelord17]

A Labour PM will have a tough time no matter what.

The people don’t want Labour, they won because of first past the post rather than growing support. It’s more the Tories split and the votes went to a bunch of different parties other than Labour, allowing Labour to win enough seats to form government.

That means the public really isn’t interested in their policies.

If the PM tries to govern too far down Labours ideology the public is upset. If they don’t, the party is upset and you get kicked out.

Rock and hard place.

 

[daftandbarmy]

A Labour PM will have a tough time no matter what.

The people don’t want Labour, they won because of first past the post rather than growing support. It’s more the Tories split and the votes went to a bunch of different parties other than Labour, allowing Labour to win enough seats to form government.

That means the public really isn’t interested in their policies.

If the PM tries to govern too far down Labours ideology the public is upset. If they don’t, the party is upset and you get kicked out.

Rock and hard place.

And it looks like they're heading further Left, with hints of favouring a stronger command economy vs. free marketeering ...

“Andy Burnham is probably one of the most popular politicians in the country,” Bale said. “Although, to be honest, that is not saying much.”

Andy Burnham aims to replace Keir Starmer as U.K. PM. Who is he?​

Burnham is perceived to be to the political left of Starmer – an asset with Labour members – and is acknowledged as one of the party’s best communicators. The rather stiff public speaker of his earlier leadership bids has been replaced by a relaxed figure in jeans and open-necked shirts.

His three mayoral election victories and decisive win in Thursday’s election in Makerfield, where he trounced the candidate of the anti-immigration party Reform UK, have cemented his status as a winner. Many in the party hope he can reverse Labour’s precipitous decline in popularity since Starmer won an election landslide two years ago.

In a postelection speech to supporters, Burnham sketched out his priorities: better vocational education and jobs for young people, lower energy bills and rail fares and “an end to trickle down economics, which didn’t trickle down very much at all to places like this.”

Critics say Burnham’s politics are vague and fail to grapple with tough issues, such as where the money will come from to pay for his pledges. And they note that running a country of 70 million is a lot different from overseeing a city region of 3 million.

Andy Burnham aims to replace Keir Starmer as U.K. PM. Who is he? - National | Globalnews.ca

Burnham is an experienced politician whose career has taken him from high-level government jobs to the mayoralty of Greater Manchester, and now to the cusp of the PM’s office.

globalnews.ca

 

[Altair]

And it looks like they're heading further Left, with hints of favouring a stronger command economy vs. free marketeering ...

“Andy Burnham is probably one of the most popular politicians in the country,” Bale said. “Although, to be honest, that is not saying much.”

Andy Burnham aims to replace Keir Starmer as U.K. PM. Who is he?​

Burnham is perceived to be to the political left of Starmer – an asset with Labour members – and is acknowledged as one of the party’s best communicators. The rather stiff public speaker of his earlier leadership bids has been replaced by a relaxed figure in jeans and open-necked shirts.

His three mayoral election victories and decisive win in Thursday’s election in Makerfield, where he trounced the candidate of the anti-immigration party Reform UK, have cemented his status as a winner. Many in the party hope he can reverse Labour’s precipitous decline in popularity since Starmer won an election landslide two years ago.

In a postelection speech to supporters, Burnham sketched out his priorities: better vocational education and jobs for young people, lower energy bills and rail fares and “an end to trickle down economics, which didn’t trickle down very much at all to places like this.”

Critics say Burnham’s politics are vague and fail to grapple with tough issues, such as where the money will come from to pay for his pledges. And they note that running a country of 70 million is a lot different from overseeing a city region of 3 million.

Andy Burnham aims to replace Keir Starmer as U.K. PM. Who is he? - National | Globalnews.ca

Burnham is an experienced politician whose career has taken him from high-level government jobs to the mayoralty of Greater Manchester, and now to the cusp of the PM’s office.

globalnews.ca

If Labour can get back the voters they lost to the greens they will br fine electorally. But they cannot afford the vote split.

Although, neither can reform UK, and now they got their own splinter group, restore UK.

Another post brexit phenomenon, the decline of traditional parties, rise of the parties seeking to overturn the apple cart.

FPTP isnt meant to deal with 5-6 parties all polling above 10 percent.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I like the cat one best

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

 

[Brad Sallows]

Yeah, sure, the UK is 10 percent poorer now because of brexit, better?

All the figures that turned up for my quick search are in the range 6% to 8%. "Rounding up" is sometimes OK, even sometimes to the nearest multiple of 10, but not when you're starting with a value in single figures and it distorts the truth by 25 to 65 %. And it's difficult to quantify just how much of that is the EU being spiteful and taking measures to position the UK as more of a warning than a good example to other dissenting factions.

Can the value of sovereignty to people be so easily disregarded? It is easy to do from afar, by those who have no real stake in either the financial or sovereignty aspect. Minds of outsiders are also possibly clouded by one of the many partisan distractions of team-based politics and how they feel about the way they want to see the world evolve, rather than trying to really see from the point of view of different people directly affected. Canada would benefit from a currency union and some closer political arrangements if a North American Union were established. Obviously the participants (Canada, USA, Mexico, and possibly some Caribbean nations) would each have to cede some sovereignty, and it would be unsurprising if the USA were the centre of gravity and made the fewest concessions while Canada had to make more. So now all the reader has to do is imagine how many Canadians would leap at that opportunity to become more prosperous. Similarly, Canada is itself a union of its provinces, and yet a sizeable minority of Quebeckers twice expressed interest in putting sovereignty ahead of financial interests.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

 

[Altair]

All the figures that turned up for my quick search are in the range 6% to 8%. "Rounding up" is sometimes OK, even sometimes to the nearest multiple of 10, but not when you're starting with a value in single figures and it distorts the truth by 25 to 65 %.

Sigh...

A decade of Brexit: Britain falls behind peers in trade and growth

Economic analysis shows UK GDP per capita grew up to 10% less than similar nations as firms froze spending and productivity slipped.View on euronews

ca.finance.yahoo.com

 

[FJAG]

I've tried, unsuccessfully to find a definitive Burnham position on national defence. Just the usual rhetoric, but in light of the recent resignation of Minister of Defence - nothing much.

Anyone come across anything worthwhile?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Sigh...

As I wrote: "figures", not "figure". There's a range of estimates and reported syntheses, not just one.

 

[Altair]

As I wrote: "figures", not "figure". There's a range of estimates and reported syntheses, not just one.

Sure.

So they grew 6-10 percent slower than their peers after being in lockstep before.

For a nation the size of the UK, their GDP being 4.3 trillion USD, we are looking at 215-430 billion in lost growth. Tax 30, 40, percent of that, you can fund the NHS. You dont have to shortchange seniors. You can fund the military.

Im not saying the UK is a utopia staying in the EU, but there is something to said about the lost decade putting extra strain on public services, leading to unpopular leaders due to the the brits being at the mercy of the bond markets.

7 leaders in 10 years, 6 leaders in the last 7 years, this is not a sign of a country that has its act together. Its instability brought on by the seismic change brexit caused and is still causing.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Sure.

So they grew 6-10 percent slower than their peers after being in lockstep before.

Yes. Again: Brexit has had a financial cost.

For a nation the size of the UK, their GDP being 4.3 trillion USD, we are looking at 215-430 billion in lost growth. Tax 30, 40, percent of that, you can fund the NHS. You dont have to shortchange seniors. You can fund the military.

UK's revenue-spending problems go deeper than Brexit. "It's worse than it might otherwise have been by now" is all that can be concluded, but not even that is assured because the GDP shift only affects the revenue. What kind of additional spending, or spending priorities, might the EU-favouring British establishment and EU have caused to be? We can't know.

What is different after Brexit: there is only one point of accountability for the political decisions affecting the revenue-spending imbalance.

7 leaders in 10 years, 6 leaders in the last 7 years, this is not a sign of a country that has its act together. Its instability brought on by the seismic change brexit caused and is still causing.

And I continue to assert the instability is primarily the result of a governing establishment that mostly does not want to do what the people governed want it to do. There is enough instability in the federal politics of other European (EU) nations to suggest the problem can't be exiting the EU - they haven't exited, and they have instability. Britain isn't the only country with leaders and governments falling.